MIECZ - SŁAWOMIR wrote:
> 
> elena danielyan wrote:
> >
> >
> > Mr. Kudla wrote:
> > >In article someone says...
> > >{....}
> > > >   NATO, a military alliance, is being used now as a tool
> > > >   in economic competition.  You're begging to take you
> > > >   for nothing in that game, so you will be treated as worth
> > > >   nothing.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Elena
> > >
> > >Elena,
> > >
> > >Are you threatnig us ,too?
> >
> > ;-) No one is or was making any threats under this topic.
> >
> >
> > >I do not want to insult your intelligence, so please give us
> > >ONE good reason (save  all that old fashioned mumbling), just
> > >the reason,  why Russia is doing everything to stop us
> > >from geting our "destiny. " Why don't you just say:" Go ahead.
> > >Make my day!"
> >
> > Probably because Russia doesn't like NATO missles deployed
> > around her borders. Also, i think, because Russia is striving
> > against new iron curtain in Europe built from the west side.
> >
> > Don't worry, you'll here that after/if become NATO members
> > while still depending on Russian gas and energy ;-)
> 
> Dear Elena,
> 
>   Ms. Elena your arguments seem to be more rational than these of those
> politicians from both "European" right and "European" left in Poland
> whose NATO ideology became more maniacal than based on political reality.
>  I belong to this nationalistic minority in Poland and elsewhere which
> strongly opposes any compromising of our national sovergnity.  For us,
> Polish nationalists this reason is enough to oppose any international
> organizations such European Union and NATO Treaty.   We learned to much
> from the past half  century of Soviet influence to be not caution now.
> There were Greek rights violated many times by Turkey despite those two
> countries belong to the  same treaty but why did the USA  allow Turkey to
> violate Greece?   Can you help me to find a proper answer?
> I expect from Russians clear explanation why does Russia oppose Poland
> and other former Warsaw Pact countries membership in NATO Pact?
> Is it caused by historical experience of Russia or other reasons?
> What is Russian opinion about the role of Germany, the strongest NATO
> member in Europe and the second largest exporter of arms in the world
> after US?
> Is anyone able to give me answer how US troops do behave in Balkans and
> Hungary especially  none White part of them?
> Do Slavonic or Hungarian girls  mingle with these non Whites?
> 
> >
> > >>Less NAaaato hysteria,
> > >
> >
> > >Looks like Russia is the one who is the most hysterical about the subject.
> > >
> > >Mr. Kudla
> > >--
> > >Save on your LD calls NOW! USA only 12.9c/min; Poland - 46c/min;
> > >Ukraine/ Russia - 67c/min;  UK - 18.5c/min; Germany - 29c/min.
> > >Visit:  http://ld.net/?grazyna  - for details.
> > >
> >
> >    i said : and more numbers, Mr. Kudla, like those of
> >    Russian per capita that you have yet looong way to go... ;-)
> >
> >    Still your phone rates look foul.
> >
> > Elena
> 
> I   Beware  China’s rising Sun!!!
> II  Support Russian kinsmen in keeping  yellows  from Europe borders!!!
> III Remeber Russia is a sole strong pale of a White  Euroasia! !!
> 
> Thank you Elena for posting your clever point of view,
> 
> Anty New World Order sympathizer,
> --
> 
>       //
>   O<<<M I E C Z>>>>>
>       \\
> 
>   ..."Jestem Polakiem - wiec mam obowiazki polskie"
> 
>   ...I am Pole - then I have got Polish duties"...
> 
> Roman Dmowski, "MYSLI NOWOCZESNEGO POLAKA"
> 
>                "Thoughts of A Modern Pole"
So, let's invite Russia to join NATO. The truth is that : we are all in
this togeteher, so why dont we start acting like it.
---Mike

Dominus wrote:
> 
> Tibor
> ugy lattom,  hogy NAGY lelegzetet vettel. Szerencsed, hogy
> kitartott. Es most vegy egy ME'LY lelegzetet is, mert igy a
> felszinen nem talalok sok ertelmet.
> Szerintem a film jo, a musicalt mint mufajt nem szeretem
> ugyan, de annak is jo. Mint tortenelem pocsek. De senki sem
> megy oda (kulonosen Madonna rajongoi nem) toertenelmet
> tanulni.
> 

Kedves Dominus

Miert tanuljon valaki tortenelmet a Madonna muzsikas filmjebol?

Egy egyszeru ember mint en, a Hungary-in tanulja a tortenelmet.
Ott is van muzsika: Ha nem hiszed ell amit tanitanak vagy kerdesed
kenyelmetlen, akkor 'elhuzzak a notadat'
Most megyek tanulni.

             Udv.
                          Mark O.F.

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Erika.
Jesus, I posted it a month ago. Have you read my postings 
since? If you had read it you would have understand what I 
said. I almost forgot about it after a month.


---------------------------------26003641727278
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From: Erika Kiss >
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic,soc.culture.magyar,bit.listserv.slovak-l
Subject: Re: Minorities here and there (was...Tornedal-FAQ)
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 13:31:33 -0800
Organization: IDF
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Message-ID: >
References: > > <5d8hmu$v7
>

pavol wrote:

>  Madars, wake up. Austrohungary is OVER. There is nothing
> you can do about it.

Why are YOU still chewing on it ever since? I do NOT think that the 
majority in Hungary wants to get back all these parts but it is wrong to 
forget that there are people living there who call themselves Hungarians. 
 You could look at it another way. What would a reunion do to the 
Hungary´s economy? Rebuild infrastructure costs a lot of money. And 
Slovakia could use a little bit more infrastructure as well as Romenia. 

> Do not complain about discrimination, because we can go back in
> time and we can see who is/was rasist.  


Racist, nationalist or chauvinist? (perhaps I spelled it wrong), I don't 
think that speaking Slovakian or Hungarian is a racial question. We are 
not that different.


Erika

---------------------------------26003641727278--

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------=_NextPart_000_01BC235D.FA145B20
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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LOOKING for Information on the following family members.
I have information on all the family after they came to
the US but nothing from Germany. If you have information
or questions on this family please write...
Donald Wesley Schmidt born 12/23/50 Sacramento, CA
Email 
1017 El Camino Real #319
Redwood City, CA 94063 USA

Son of Jan Jansen Smid & Barber Roelf
Chrisstoffer Jansen Smid (Schmidt)
Born 11 Jun 1815 in Germany died 21 Jan 1880 and buried in Germany. 

Married Magdelena Berends Johanni
Born 28 Jan 1818 in Germany died 18 Jan 1894 in Point Pleasant, California.
Daughter of Berend Gerts Jansen Johanni & Berentje Jansen Berends,
She came to the United States about 1881 as a widow with some of
the following children. The name was changed from Smid to Schmidt.

Children born in Groszwolde, Germany 
Johanna Schmidt born 6 Nov 1840, died 13 May 1927.
Berendt (Berend) Schmidt born 17 Jul 1843, died 25 Feb 1930.
Jan (John) Schmidt born 28 Aug 1845, died, 5 Dec 1896.
Henrich (Hinderk) Schmidt born 20 Dec 1848, died 2 Apr 1927
Johannes Schmidt born 17 Mar 1852, died prior to 1860.
Bendtje (Lena) Schmidt born 7 Mar 1854 , died 16 Dec 1937.
Annetta (Anete) Schmidt born 26 Jul 1857, died 26 May 1902.
Johannes Christoffer (Uncle Joe) Schmidt born 22 Mar 1860, died 21 Nov
1926.

            """""
           / ~ ~ \
           \ O O /
__oooO--(_)--Oooo________________<Don 
Send A FREE FAX anywhere in the world.
Details At http://www.aimnet.com/~dschmidt/guide.html
  (   )    Oooo
__\ (___(   )_____________________________________________________
     \_)    ) /
            (_/

------=_NextPart_000_01BC235D.FA145B20
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial"><b>LOOKING for Information on the =
following family members.<br>I have information on all the family after =
they came to<br>the US but nothing from Germany. If you have =
information<br>or questions on this family please write...<br>Donald =
Wesley Schmidt born 12/23/50 Sacramento, CA<br>Email =
<br>1017 El Camino Real #319<br>Redwood City, CA =
94063 USA<br><br>Son of Jan Jansen Smid & Barber =
Roelf<br>Chrisstoffer Jansen Smid (Schmidt)<br>Born 11 Jun 1815 in =
Germany died 21 Jan 1880 and buried in Germany. <br><br>Married =
Magdelena Berends Johanni<br>Born 28 Jan 1818 in Germany died 18 Jan =
1894 in Point Pleasant, California.<br>Daughter of Berend Gerts Jansen =
Johanni & Berentje Jansen Berends,<br>She came to the United States =
about 1881 as a widow with some of<br>the following children. The name =
was changed from Smid to Schmidt.<br><br>Children born in Groszwolde, =
Germany <br>Johanna Schmidt born 6 Nov 1840, died 13 May =
1927.<br>Berendt (Berend) Schmidt born 17 Jul 1843, died 25 Feb =
1930.<br>Jan (John) Schmidt born 28 Aug 1845, died, 5 Dec =
1896.<br>Henrich (Hinderk) Schmidt born 20 Dec 1848, died 2 Apr =
1927<br>Johannes Schmidt born 17 Mar 1852, died prior to =
1860.<br>Bendtje (Lena) Schmidt born 7 Mar 1854 , died 16 Dec =
1937.<br>Annetta (Anete) Schmidt born 26 Jul 1857, died 26 May =
1902.<br>Johannes Christoffer (Uncle Joe) Schmidt born 22 Mar 1860, died =
21 Nov<br>1926.<br><br> =
           "&=
quot;"""<br> =
          / ~ ~ \<br> =
          \ O O =
/<br>__oooO--(_)--Oooo________________<Don Schmidt><font =
color=3D"#0000FF"</u><font =
color=3D"#000000"><br>Send A FREE FAX anywhere in the world.<br>Details =
At <font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>http://www.aimnet.com/~dschmidt/guide.html<;/u><font =
color=3D"#000000"><br>  (   ) =
   Oooo<br>__\ (___( =
  )_____________________________________________________<br> =
    \_)    ) /<br> =
           (_/<br>=
<br></p>
</font></font></font></font></font></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_01BC235D.FA145B20--

On 24 Feb 1997 02:55:54 GMT,  (elena danielyan)
wrote:
>In article >,
>Mr. Kudla > wrote:

>     it is an unique historic opportunity,
>    you are in a position to establish real independence,
>    to derive MOST benefits from the west-east competition,

And we're succeeding: first NATO membership, than EU membership.
Then, a few decades of hard work and a first world standard of living.
:-)

>    Instead, you're jumping into another political and
>    economic yoke,

Yes, the economic yoke born by such countries as Denmark, Norway,
South Korea, Taiwan and Japan.  Quite a comfortable yoke, isn't it?

> like getting rid of soviet domination
>    was all about right... to switch from WP to NATO,
>    from one master to another.

No, Comrad Elena "the Lair" Danielyan.  The Soviet Union was the
master of the Warsaw Pact.  There is no master in NATO, since NATO is
a free association of states.

>     Instead of putting diplomatic efforts in good relations
>      with both, Russia and West, and deriving benefits from
>      your position, you burn the bridges by asking of NATO

If Russia can't accept Central and Eastern Europe's dedication to
removing the threat of future military adventures on her part, the
bridges aren't worth keeping.

>      addmissions like beggars, so you will be treated accordingly.

Which is a whole lot better than being treated as slaves, like the
Soviet did.

>      Your business opportunities with the East will be
>       cutted down, and for the west you will forever remain
>       "forth-world" countries, a new colonies whose economies
>       will be strictly controlled by the "big brothers",

Like South Korea, Taiwan, and Japan.

>        a cheap labor market, a space for hazardous productions,

That will be controlled by local legislation, or by the EU -- in the
first case, we decide ourselves.  In the second case, we share the
same floor as the rest of the European Union.

>        a consumer of outdated western products and technology.

Producs and technologies that the Soviet kept trying to steal.

Alexander
Comrad Elena "the Lair" Danielyan's Class Enemy

I have edited my return address in order to avoid the
gross excess in junk e-mail infesting the net. 
To e-mail me, just remove the word spamfree
from my address.

In article >,
Mr. Kudla > wrote:
>In article >,  says..
.
>
>>That is what I call the slave mentality. People thinking this way
>>always depend on somebody else, a "wealthy uncle", so to speak.
>>They lack self-assurance, self-respect and a lack of freedom
>>doesn't come as a surprise after all, don't you think so? 
>
>Yes I do think so. The funny part is that it was Russia that depended
>on everybody around, what can be seen very clearly today. And
>you trying to tell everybody that it was otherwise. Wake up!
>You are fooling yourself!

The statment above has nothing to do with reality.
And what we see today is that Russia's economy is on grow
despite broken connections with those on whome, you claim,
she "depended".

>I know it is very hard to understand for you in your poor mind. Your way of
>thinking force you to always think about the things you may loose when
>doing something. That is how slave, poor and destitute mind works.
>We are trying to think what we can gain for ourselves by doing things.
>That is how the free mind works.And that is the difference beetween us.

By observing your style for a while, i think, you are not on a position
to "tiiich" others of what "free mind" is ... ;-)


>>Now the conclusion. The NATO expansion in the form it is about to 
>>take is another example of the impatience of the Western business
>>and military circles to amass more muscle.
>
>And because it is not Russia that wants to do that, it is wrong?
>
>>An overwhelming majority of Russian citizens will inevitably perceive
>>it only as an unfriendly move.
>
>An overwhelming majority of  Russian citizens does not give a damn
>about that move. They have expressed themselves very clearly.
>They will take a fascists as their leaders, as long as they bring them
>food and a chance for stability and peaceful life. Now live with that.


       I think, your posts are penetrated with frustration, hate
        and hypocricy. That's an impression they make. If you hate
        russians as a nation, you would refrain to talk on this
        subject. 

        That's how civilized mind works ;-)



>Russia has been going down the drain since 1917,
>(known  on the way as a Union of the Soviet 
>Socialist Republics) - just a reminder.


    Russia's economy is on unprecedented grow,
    nevertheless of broken economic structures and wild "reform"
     of the last years.
    Despite of "western prognoses", Russia has not and will not
     ""go down to drain"", e.g. become the source of the cheap
     raw materials, slave labor market and consumer of cheap
     western junk, as it was expected. 

     It has not and yet will not happen. Big Russian cities are
      among the most expensive places in the world, with the
      according level of living. Inflation is dropped down
      dramatically last year. So was the unemployment. 
      Russian currency is stabilized against $ and DM. 

      Plus, in 1997 Russia will become the world' arms exporter N1.
      So there are no chances to see that country a ""looser"",
      an obedient ""attachment"" to "progressive west". She
       preserved her economic=political independency and she
        reganes her strength.

      Even though there is still a "wild capitalism" stage, the
       level of crime and corruption is much exaggerated by the
      "sensationalist" media. It doesn't threat a growth of
      Russian economy.

        That's why this NATO hysteria. Russia today is no
          no threat to anyone. But it is a COMPETITOR, if not
           today, then for real tomorrow. So she has to be
         "made" a threat. "West" doesn't know another way to
          compete but in wars, cold or hot ones. And first
          who will be brought in sacrifice, if it comes to it,
          will be certainly EE countries. That's why this rush
          to grab them into military alliance, that's to make sure
           there will be no independent decisions taken in
           their "capitals". 


>>The irony is that maybe it is the only way
>>to get Russia out of the prolonging coma -- time to wake up
>>and look into the eyes of the truth. One should defend one's
>>interests and not rely on the good-will and suave talk of
>>the business magnates. This is the only way to gain respect
>>in the corrupt human world.

   absolutely true.


>-- 
>Save on your LD calls NOW! USA only 12.9c/min; Poland - 46c/min;
>Russia / Ukraine - 67c/min;  UK - 18.5c/min; Germany - 29c/min
>Visit:  http://ld.net/?grazyna  - for details.
>


      Your rates sound foul, Mr. Kudla.


Elena

From the OMRI News:

>... a delegation from
>the Hungarian parliament's European Integration Committee held talks
>with senior Romanian officials in Bucharest. Viktor Orban, president of
>the committee, reiterated Hungary's desire that Romania and Hungary join
>NATO simultaneously.

For not isolating the many etchnic Hungarians in Romania, it would be
better if both countries were accepted into NATO, though its likelyhood
is still not great.  But it would also be important that Slovenia be
admitted in the first round, too, because otherwise Hungary would be
isolated from the rest of NATO.  In such a situation the value of NATO
membership for Hungary would be questionable because the surrounding
non-NATO countries might refuse allowing land troops across their
territories in case Hungary was threatened.  At least with Slovenia in,
a direct land bridge with Northern Italy would be assured.

What do you think?

Joe

On 22 Feb 1997 18:07:56 GMT, Yuri Omelchenko >
wrote:

>What we see IS a foul play. Instead of continuing to strengthen
>stability in Europe by including Russia into play, they take
>advantage of its weakened state and simply try to dictate their
>will once again.

Russia has no right to dictate the foreign policy of any of her former
captive states.  Her inability to make them obey her dicates is a
possitive improvement, and as soon as Russia stops trying to issue
those dictates,  but rather accepts their sovereignity, she will
suddenly find herself much more influencial in European circles.

> The irony is that maybe it is the only way
>to get Russia out of the prolonging coma -- time to wake up
>and look into the eyes of the truth. One should defend one's
>interests and not rely on the good-will and suave talk

That's just what the Central and Eastern Europeans have decided too.
Why don't you support them in their decisions to look after their own
interests rather than listen to Moscow's "suave talk"?

Alexander

I have edited my return address in order to avoid the
gross excess in junk e-mail infesting the net. 
To e-mail me, just remove the word spamfree
from my address.

John Walker's response is below.
> ======================================================
elena danielyan > wrote in article
>...

>   I apologize to the readers of all those NGs for the utter nonsence
>     they exposed from  under this topic.
> 
>    Alexander Bossy seems to me one of the many Usenet mental disordered
>     that choose the target and follow his/her every article on Usenet
>     with sensless insults and crap. 
> 
>    My apologies again that it follows my posts, but
>     Internet is full of sick people, we have to live with it.
> 
> 
> Elena
> =========================================
John Walker responds:
---------------------------------
Elena- After reading your messge above I clicked over to
the Alexander Bossy piece to find out what it was that
ticked you off.

Frankly Elena I think your response was irrational and
disproportionate.  Internet sites, after all, are open to the
public and AB has every right to do what you accused
him of doing. You might think you are being harassed
and stalked but on the newsgroups that is all part
of the territory.  You seem to be insisting that you be
shielded from contrary opinion.  This is not what debate
is about. Even Alexander has a right to his own opinion
and the Internet is a proper platform for it.

I noted that AB worked at keeping his argument logical,
that is language was generally very civil and that he
appeared to be striving for constructiveness though he
did engage in some pointed personal and unflattering 
remarks. Your reply, however, lacked all of those finer
qualities and augmented all of the bad qualities you
claimed in him.Thus, you presented a contortuplicate
argument (an argument which twisted back upon itself).

The next time you complain about nuts on the Internet
who go around insulting people be more careful not
to appear to be one of them.

rodica perciali wrote:
> 
> Yuri Omelchenko wrote:
> >
> >  (Leszek Andrzej Kleczkowski) wrote:
> >
> > Hey Leszek:
> >
> > The NATO syndrome seems to be the most popular topic in the soc.culture
> > groups throughout the whole spectrum of former Warsaw pact members...
> 
>         I believe it is in all our countries not just in the soc.c.grs which 
shows how much those countries
> feel the need for a "father" figure, a "saviour"  (that's why they fell pray 
to communism so easily

Who did? You? Don't tell whose who were killed or sent to Siberia did.

>....it was a
> matter of poverty as well 


Poverty was caused by communism.

>or in the first place and of Orthodoxism where God is doing things for us and 
not so
> much like in protestantism and neoprotesatntism where we do things for us). 

An utter nonsense. Why did those western European countries found NATO
in the first place?
And why should be the eastern Europeans' desire top join it be due to
any other motives?

MK

In article >,  says...
>
>someone wrote:
>> 
>> In article >,  
says...
>> >
>> >Kosz, Nagymama!
>> >Es mi van az ipsevel?
>> >D.
>> >
>> >Nem rossz.  Ipse = pasas
>> 
>>
>
>Ipse = pasas = urge = csoro = pok = krapek =?
> 
>Viszont szeretnem tudni hogy mi a beceneve
>a Nagymama szonak, mint granny angolul.
>
>                            Mark

Az unokaimnak nagyi vagyok.

Agnes

URL: <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
Archive-name: hungarian/faq
Soc-culture-magyar-archive-name: faq
Last-modified: 1996/07/04
Version: 1.50
Posting-Frequency: every fifteen days

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

     Hungarian electronic resources FAQ

               TABLE OF CONTENTS

1.      News and discussion groups in English
1.1  News from the Open Media Research Institute
1.2  News from Central Europe Today
1.3  The Hungary Report
1.4  Hungary Online List (HOL)
1.5  MOZAIK
1.6  On USENET
1.7  'Hungary', the LISTSERV list 
1.8  , the Hungarian-American list

2.      News and discussion groups in Hungarian
2.1  HIX (many groups and services)
2.2  BLA Sajtoszemle [press review]
2.3  "Nemzet" Magyar Internet Vilaglap [Hungarian Internet World Bulletin]
2.4  Other discussion groups

3.      Interactive services
3.1  What's available on the World Wide Web
3.2  Gopher and other interactive services
3.3  ARENA

4.      The Net in Hungary
4.1  BITNET/HUEARN
4.2  HUNGARNET
4.3  FidoNet
4.4  Finding out somebody's email address

5.      Odds and ends
5.1  Traveling with a computer in Hungary
5.2  Conventions for coding Hungarian accents
5.3  Information sources about the rest of Central and Eastern Europe
5.4  Hungarian radio and television broadcasts available worldwide

6.      Contributors to this FAQ

7.      How to read this FAQ - what's in there < ~!@#$%^&* >

- - ----------------------------------------------------------------------

 I know this is very long, perhaps too long for human consumption ;-).
One of the tasks for further editing is to make it more concise,
perhaps drop some parts altogether (I'd like to hear any suggestions).
You can search for the section titles listed above and skip what you
don't want, and many Unix newsreaders would jump ahead to the next one
with Ctrl-G (the format now follows the digest specification)!

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 1.  NEWS AND DISCUSSION GROUPS IN ENGLISH

 Note: commercial networks -- such as CompuServe or AOL -- may have
their own in-house forums relating to Eastern and Central Europe. Be
aware that those are only open to the subscribers of the particular
service, unlike the discussion groups accessible by anyone via the
Internet and Usenet! This file -- the hungarian-faq -- is mostly
concerned with resources freely available netwide.
 See also the sections under 2. below which list services that carry
occasional English material, some regularly, besides their primarily
Hungarian language content.

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 1.1  News from the Open Media Research Institute

 The Open Media Research Institute Daily Digest is available via
electronic mail, at no charge. The Digest covers all of the former
Soviet Union, East-Central and Southeastern Europe and is delivered in
two parts, each roughly 15 kByte in size, Monday through Friday (except
Czech holidays).

 You can subscribe by sending <mailto:>.
In the body of the message, type
 "SUBSCRIBE OMRI-L Yourfirstname Yourlastname" (leave out the quotation
marks and be sure to substitute your own name where shown).

 You can get reposts of just the items related to Hungary by
subscribing to Mozaik. See section 1.5.

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 1.2  News from Central Europe Today

 Central Europe Today On-Line is a free daily news service covering the
important events and business news in the region. To subscribe, send
the word SUBSCRIBE <mailto:>. For more
detailed information, send a blank email message
<mailto:>.

Again, these exceed Hungary in scope, but you can get excerpts
pertaining to Hungary in Mozaik (see 1.4).

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 1.3  The Hungary Report

 The Hungary Report is a free weekly English-language online update of
news and analysis direct from Budapest each Sunday. The Report consists
of briefs, one feature story and an expert political opinion column.
The briefs cover the most important and interesting developments in
Hungary each week, while the feature stories address variously
politics, business, economics, arts and leisure. The weekly political
column, Parliament Watch, is written by Tibor Vidos, director of the
Budapest office of GJW, a British political lobbying and consulting
firm. To subscribe, send
<mailto:> containing (in the body
of the message, not in the headers) the single word "subscribe" (no
quotes).  Or send the word "info" to the same address for further
information.

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 1.4  Hungary Online List (HOL)

 This discussion list is a "kind of Internet supplement" to the column
of the same title in Budapest Business Journal; to subscribe, send the
word "subscribe" <mailto:> (you'll get help
from its Majordomo server, if needed).

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 1.5  MOZAIK

 This is actually one of the services of HIX, meaning there's a slight
bit of Hungarian mixed in (the posts themselves are mostly in English,
but the server speaks Hunglish ;-)). MOZAIK brings you original content
(e.g. the schedule of DUNA TV, exchange rates), and digested reposts
of those news items (originating from OMRI, CET and other sources)
that bear directly on Hungary. You can subscribe by
sending a blank email message to <mailto:> and
unsubscribe by sending one to <mailto:>. See
section 3 about searching the HIX archives.

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 1.6  On USENET

 The Hungarian newsgroup in the worldwide hierarchy is
<news:soc.culture.magyar>. It's mostly in English, sometimes
bilingual, and occasionally Hungarian only. The group is archived by
HIX (see its section for 'SCM') and is also readable under
<http://www.hix.com/usenet/>;. A similar archive is to be found at
<http://mineral.umd.edu/usenet/>; (see 1.8 below). For www/e-mail
gateways see <http://www.siliconvalley.com/nemzetiforum.html>; or the
archives mentioned above.

 Since May 1995 Hungary has its own netnews hierachy, with the following
groups created so far (hun.lists.* are email gateways):
        <news:hun.test>
        <news:hun.news>
        <news:hun.piac>
        <news:hun.comp>
        <news:hun.general>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.forum>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.hunet>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.moka>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.otthonka>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.szalon>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.tipp>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.vita>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.otthon>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.guru>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.kornyesz>
        <news:hun.lists.katalist>

 If you can connect to a remote news server (typically by setting the
NNTPSERVER variable under Unix), then you can get hun.* directly from
news.sztaki.hu or news.iif.hu (the former has been more stable
lately). Fetching articles is much faster from a local source - ask
you system administrator if they can get a feed! In the USA the first
provider offering the hierarchy seems to be AltNet,
<mailto:> to find out about that.  There is a gopher
interface to news: <gopher://mars.iif.hu:70/11/News> (the full URL to
go straight to the hun.* groups is:
<gopher://mars.iif.hu:70/1exec%3A-g%20hun%3A/bin/gonnrp>). 
For accessing groups in the international hierarchy from abroad via
gopher the gateway in the Netherlands may be better:
<gopher://g4nn.cca.vu.nl:4320/1g4nn%20group/soc.culture.magyar>.  The
hun.* groups are also archived by HIX (see its section for 'HUNGROUPS')
and they are also readable under <http://www.hix.com/usenet/>; as well
as <http://mineral.umd.edu/usenet/>;.
 HIX provides a universal posting gateway to the soc.culture.magyar and
hun.* newsgroups. Use the addresses:
<mailto:>, for example
<mailto:>. A similar gatewaying service
is also available for soc.culture.magyar via
<mailto:> (see 1.8 below), as well as via
<mailto:> (see also 2.3).

 There are Hungarian local newsgroups available through
<telnet://ludens.elte.hu>, login with username GUEST (no password), and
enter NEWS to start the newsreader (you can use the VMS online help to
learn about it). The guest account is set up for accessing
<news:elte.diaklap> (students' journal at Eotvos U.), but other
newsgroups are available as well. (But please be considerate to the
strained network resources of Hungarian sites - from abroad for
non-local news use other providers.) For ELTE-specific questions
contact <mailto:>. This server is also accessible
via remote NNTP like the two mentioned above, but is often much slower
than those.

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 1.7 'Hungary', the LISTSERV list 

  is a discussion group providing rapid communication
among those with interests in Hungarian issues. Subscribe by 
<mailto:> using no subject and a message
consisting only of SUBSCRIBE HUNGARY Yourfirstname Lastname. Once you
have subscribed, any messages which you want to send to the group
should be sent to the group address, <mailto:>.
(This pattern of two addresses is standard: you turn your mail off and
on at the "listserv" address, and you send mail to the listname
address. For example, to  unsubscribe, send the server the message
SIGNOFF HUNGARY. You can temporarily turn off you mail by sending
listserv the message SET HUNGARY NOMAIL. SET HUNGARY MAIL turns mail
back on.) By default the listserv sends out messages as they arrive,
maybe several ones on busier days. If you prefer daily digest format,
you can issue the command SET HUNGARY DIGESTS (again by sending it to
the LISTSERV address); alternatively you can subscribe to HUNGARY via
HIX as mentioned in 2.1, and receive the same format as the other lists
by HIX. LISTSERV has many useful features, most notably database search
on the list archives - to learn more about it, send commands like SEND
HELP, SEND HELP DATABASE.

 Note that the form of addressing LISTSERV lists such as Hungary may
depend a great deal on your local network configuration and mailer
software. For BITNET mailers you need GWUVM only; the local gatewaying
to BITNET may be BITNET% for VAXMail installations and
 at other places. Ask your local network
administrator first if you're experiencing problems.

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 1.8  , the Hungarian-American list

 The Hungarian-American List is an unmoderated discussion forum to
promote communications between people with interest in modern Hungarian
culture and Hungarian cultural heritage. The list brings you, among
other things, news items originating from OMRI, CET, the Hungarian
media and several other sources, that might be of interest for
Hungarians and Americans. The WWW Home Page of the Hungarian-American
list is <http://mineral.umd.edu/hungary/>;. Subscribe by
<mailto:>, using no subject and a message
consisting only of SUBSCRIBE HUNGARY. The Hungarian Usenet group -
soc.culture.magyar is available for Hungarian-American List subscribers
via email. You can subscribe to this news-to-mail-to-news service by
<mailto:>, using no Subject, in the body of the
letter write SUBSCRIBE SOC-CULTURE-MAGYAR. The WWW address of the
interactive soc.culture.magyar archive is
<http://mineral.umd.edu/soc.culture.magyar/>;.

 (Notice that this Maryland-based list is distinct from the older
LISTSERV list mentioned in 1.7 that has a broader focus - mentioning
'the HUNGARY list' ususally refers to that latter one! Note also that
the Majordomo server syntax is different from LISTSERV for many of
their commands - see the help document sent by the server.)

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 2.  NEWS AND DISCUSSION GROUPS IN HUNGARIAN

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 2.1  HIX

 HIX, or Hollosi Information eXchange, is a non-profit formation run
and supported by several individuals and organizations. HIX was started
in 1989/90 and now it reaches more than 10,000 readers in about 45 countries
around the World.

Its services, mostly in Hungarian, are abundant and change frequently, so
it is best to obtain an up-to-date help file by sending an email message to
<mailto:> (a recent copy of that also seems to be in
<http://www.hix.com/hix/hixcore/senddoc/MAIN/HELP.ALL>; - but please
notice that there are superseded copies scattered in other parts in
the archive on the one hand, and many of the other files in this same
directory are outdated on the other hand; most notably, DO NOT TOUCH
that ancient version of hungarian-faq found there!). Here's a list of
what it currently offers in email digest format:

 HIR      -- 'Hirmondo', current newspaper survey edited in Budapest
 NARANCS  -- The Internet edition of the 'Magyar Narancs' weekly
 TIPP     -- politics-free questions, tips etc.
 SZALON   -- moderated political discussion forum
 FORUM    -- unmoderated political discussion forum
 GURU     -- computer-related questions
 RANDI    -- moderated personals; anonymous submissions possible
 VITA     -- moderated non-political discussion forum
 OTTHON   -- issues around the home
 MOKA     -- jokes, humor (Hungarian and other)
 MOZAIK   -- semi-regular bits of news and other info, mostly in
	     English, crossposts from the OMRI list, VoA gopher, CET
	     and other sources
 HUNGARY  -- daily digest of the Hungary LISTSERV list (see 1.7)
 SCM      -- gatewayed email digest of the Usenet newsgroup
             soc.culture.magyar 

 The following is not available for email subscription from
Hungary, but are accessible via the SENDDOC interface (or the
'finger ' service for the latest issues):
 HUNGROUPS - gatewayed email digest of the hun.* regional newsgroups

 Note that KEP (transcripts from the videotext news from Hungarian
Television's Kepujsag) has been suspended indefinitely - despite what
HIX' own HELP says.

 To subscribe (unsubscribe) to a particular email-journal, send email
to  ) where NAME is one of the
above.

 The postings for the HIX discussion lists are sent out daily in
digested form. You can send your own submission to ,
whatever NAME is (provided it's actually a discussion list).

 The volume for some of these lists is becoming rather high, e.g. TIPP
often digests dozens of messages in hundreds of lines daily!  You ought
to try targeting your audience properly in order to find those who'd
help with your questions; also keep in mind that readers often answer
to the list rather than the individual even when personal reply is
requested, so if you ask something it's a good idea to subscribe also
(even though technically it's not required) instead of just addressing
a list as a non-subscriber. A reminder to those who reply to a post:
always remember that list messages get sent to several thousand readers,
so consider personal email if the subject is not of general interest!
If you answer through a list it's courteous to send a personal copy
(Cc: with most mailers) as well - this may reach the addressee
considerably earlier than the post distributed through the list.
 Notice the (undocumented) feature of the HIX mail-server: it only
accepts submissions if its address is found in the 'To:' header field!
It would quietly ignore incoming email Cc-d to it, so do not put the
 in the 'Cc:' (you can do so with other addressees).

 The HIX server can also send out archived files, see the SENDDOC
function in its description. In case you have any problems or questions
on the HIX services, please read through the automatic help response
first. If you need human intervention you can reach
<mailto:> - but keep in mind that list managers have
to do plenty other than answering things already laid out in the Fine
Manual.

 You can also view the output of HIX interactively. See section 3.

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 2.2  BLA Sajtoszemle

 Daily selection of articles from leading Hungarian newspapers by
the Lajos Batthyany Foundation, published by the Hungary.Network.
 
 To subscribe (unsubscribe), send email to <mailto:>
(<mailto:>). Also available in 123 accent notations
from the <mailto:> address.

 It is also readable on the WWW under <http://www.hungary.com/bla/sajto/>;.

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 2.3  Nemzet Magyar Internet Vilaglap [Hungarian Internet World Bulleti
n]

 [This section is as provided by <mailto:>]

(1) (E-mail news bulletins)
        "Nemzet" Magyar Internet Vilaglap
        E-mail news digest, Mon-Fri, 25-55k. Comprises East-European
        regional news (by OMRI, in English), excerpts from Hungarian
        press (in Hungarian), and reports on newsworthy items (press,
        events, etc., mostly in Hungarian and occasionally in English)

        Subscription/Unsubscription:
        
        
        www:  http://www.siliconvalley.com/nemzet.html

        Publisher and Editor in Chief: 

(2) (usenet e-mail digest)
        "Nemzetiforum"
        Digest of "Soc.Culture.Magyar" by means of e-mail bulletin, filtering
        out all lists and postings beyond size 8k.

        Subscription/Unsubscription:
        
        
        www: http://www.siliconvalley.com/nemzetiforum.html

        Publisher and Editor in Chief: 

(3) (www/e-mail gateway)
        E-mail message is acknowledged and posted to "Soc.Culture.Magyar",
        with your address and your subject-definition.
        Simply send contributions to  

        Gateway maintained under direction of:


(5) Hungarian Papers on WWW (liberal to conservative)

        (a)     168 ORA
                http://www.atm.com.pl/COM/xlori/168/ora.html

        (b)     KELET-MAGYARORSZAG
                http://www.bgytf.hu/public/keletm/

        (c)     UJVIDEKI NAPLO
                http://www.mediarange.com/media/huncor/organ/naplo/naplo.htm

        (d)     DEMOKRATA
                http://www.siliconvalley.com/demokrata/

        (e)     NEMZET
                http://www.siliconvalley.com/nemzet.html

        (f)     MAGYAR ELET

http://www.mediarange.com/media/huncor/organ/magyarel/hunlife.htm

        (g)     24. ORA
                http://www.infobahnos.com/~jtoth/


- - ------------------------------

Subject: 2.4  Other discussion groups in Hungarian

 A number of email lists are available from servers located in Hungary,
for directory see <gopher://HUEARN.sztaki.hu>. There are many college
publications available online as well, check out the links from the HU
homepage (see below).

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 3. INTERACTIVE SERVICES

 If you are using Hungarian interactive services from abroad (or vice
versa): please note that interactive Internet connections like WWW
may be very slow, even timing out during peak hours - try times of
lower network load when the response time is usually reasonable.

- - ------------------------------
 
Subject: 3.1  What's available on the World Wide Web

 See the separate document "Hungarian WWW information FAQ",
available at <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/web>; as well
as in the Usenet archives.

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 3.2  Gopher and other interactive services

 HIX has a server in the USA: <gopher://www.hix.com>. Its services
form just a subset of what it offers as a WWW site. RaDir is sometimes
useful for finding email-addresses, old or new friends on the Net. See
also Section 4.4.

 HIX has a gopher in Hungary as well:
<gopher://hix.elte.hu/11/HIX/HIX>, and another mirror at
<gopher://gopher.bke.hu:71/11/hix> (notice that this latter uses a
non-standard Gopher port number). Check also <gopher://gopher.elte.hu>
and <gopher://gopher.sztaki.hu>. Note that gopher is essentially
text-based (thus less satisfying than the Web) but often faster
(therefore less frustrating).

 CET's gopher is called <gopher://gopher.eunet.cz>.

 HIX documents from the archives of www.hix.com are available via the
(Unix) 'finger' protocol. Try 'finger ' to see how it
works.  This may be the easiest and fastest access from some sites.

 There is an electronic library at
<gopher://gopher.bke.hu:71/11/elibhu/> (notice the non-standard port)
that has much Hungarian text material, including some classical
poetry.

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 3.3  ARENA

 An interactive chat service of HIX, run by the Hungary.Network.
Similar to IRC, but it does NOT require any client software. Simply
<telnet:hix.hungary.com> and you are there.

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 4. THE NET IN HUNGARY

 Overview: historically, ELLA was the first home-grown X.25
email-system in Hungary. It survives till this very day. EARN was next,
with its BITNET-like infrastructure (4.1). Full Internet connectivity
is provided by HUNGARNET (see 4.2), which really comprises all
academic, research and public non-profit sites.

 Here's a partial list of its domain names:

bme.hu          Technical University of Budapest
sztaki.hu       Computer and Automation Research Institute, Budapest 
elte.hu         Roland Eotvos University of Sciences, Budapest
bke.hu          Budapest University of Economic Sciences
sote.hu         Semmelweis University of Medical Sciences, Budapest
abc.hu          Agricultural Biotechnology Center, Godollo 
gau.hu          Godollo Agricultural University, Godollo
klte.hu         Kossuth Lajos University of Sciences, Debrecen
jpte.hu         Janus Pannonius University of Sciences, Pecs
u-szeged.hu     Members of the Szeged University Association
bgytf.hu        Gyorgy Bessenyei Teachers Training College
uni-miskolc.hu  University of Miskolc
kfki.hu         Central research Inst. of Physics, Budapest 
vein.hu         University of Veszprem, Veszprem
bdtf.hu         Berzsenyi College, Szombathely
szif.hu         Szechenyi Istvan College, Gyor
blki.hu         Balaton Limnological Res. Inst. of Hung. Acad. Sci.

A schematic map of its topology ('HBONE'):

EBONE    EMPB                          EMPB   EBONE

  ^       ^                             ^       ^
  |       |                             |       |
  |       |   Microwave center ======= IIF Center ------- Miskolci Egyetem
  |       |      Budapest            /   Budapest            Miskolc
  |       |    //  ||    \\         /   //   |
  |       |   //   ||     MTA-KFKI /   //    L--------------- BGYTF
  |       |  //   MBK     Budapest    //     |             Nyiregyhaza
  |       | //   Godollo             //      |
  |      BME              MTA-SzTAKI//       L--------------- KLTE
  |    Budapest ########## Budapest          |              Debrecen
  |      ***                                 |
  |      ***                                 L--------------- GAMF
  L------BKE                                 |              Kecskemet
       Budapest                              |
          #    \                             L---------- Veszpremi Egyetem
          #     \                            |              Veszprem
         ELTE    \                           |
       Budapest   JATE                       L--------------- JPTE
                 Szeged                                       Pecs

 LEGEND

 ***  100 Mbps FDDI
  #    10 Mbps optical cable (Ethernet)
  =     2 Mbps microwave
  |    64 kbps leased line (that's 0.064 Mbps)

Source: HUNGARNET/NIIF (URL <http://www.iif.hu/hungarnet.html>;)

 FidoNet is described in section 4.3, and commercial
networks/email/Internet Providers demand a separate document
('commercial.FAQ'), also see <http://www.sztaki.hu/providers/>;.

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 4.1  BITNET/HUEARN

 What follows is a listing of all EARN nodes in Hungary, with contact
info.  This information is also available on the following gopher:
	 <gopher://cc1.kuleuven.ac.be/11/nodeearn/hungary.helpnode>.

HUBIIF11 IIF Department Budapest, Hungary                                      
      IIF;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
      Internet address : hubiif11.sztaki.hu                   
      User Info: Sandor ;+36 1 1497984                
      Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUBIIF61 IIF Department Budapest, Hungary                                    
      IIF;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
      Internet address : mars.iif.hu                          
      User Info: Istvan ;+36 1 1665644
      Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUBME11  Technical University of Budapest
     Technical University;of Budapest;Muegyetem rkp 9. R. ep;H-1111
     Budapest, Hungary           
     Internet address : atlantis.bme.hu                      
     User Info: Sandor ;+36 1 4632422               
     Fax : +36 1 1665711             

HUBME51  Technical University of Budapest                                  
     Technical University;Muegytem Rakpart 9;H-1111 Budapest               
     Internet address : bmeik.eik.bme.hu                     
     User Info: Laszlo ;+36 1 1812172                 
     Phone : +36 1 1812172            ; Fax : +36 1 1166711             

HUBPSZ12 Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary                  
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Internet address : hubpsz12.sztaki.hu                   ;
     User Info: Sandor ;+36 1 1497984                
     Phone : +36 1 1497984            ; Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUBPSZ61 Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Net Operator: Sandor ;+36 1 1497986             

HUBPSZ62 Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary                
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of
     Sciences;Lagymanyosi ut 11;1111 Budapest
     Net Operator: Sandor ;+36 1 1497986             
     Phone : +36 1 2698283            ; Fax : +36 1 2698288             

HUEARN   Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary               
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Internet address : huearn.sztaki.hu                     ;
     User Info: Miklos ;+36 1 2698286                   
     Phone : +36 1 2698283            ; Fax : +36 1 2698288             

HUECO    University of Economic Sciences Budapest, Hungary                 
     University of Economic Sci;Computer Center;Kinizsi u 1-7;1092 Budapest
     Internet address : ursus.bke.hu                         ;
     User Info: Robert ;+36 1 1175224                    
     Phone : +36 1 1181317            ; Fax : +36 1 1175224             

HUELLA   Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary           
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Node admin: Gizella ;+36 1 1497986                
     Phone : +36 1 1497984            ; Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUGBOX   Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary            
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Internet address : hugbox.sztaki.hu                    ;
     User Info: Miklos ;+36 1 1497532                
     Phone : +36 1 1497532            ; Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUGIRK51 University of Agriculture Sciences
     University of Agriculture;Pater Karoly ut 1;H-2103 Godollo
     Internet address : vax.gau.hu                           ;
     User Info: Zoltan ;+36 28 30200 -1015              
     Phone : +36 28 30200 -1015       ; Fax : +36 28 20804              

HUKLTEDR Kossuth Lajos University Debrecen, Hungary                       
     Internet address : dragon.klte.hu                       ;
     User Info: Robert                           

HUKLTE51 Kossuth Lajos University, Debrecen                                 
     Kossuth Lajos University;Egyetem Ter 1; PF. 58;H-4010 Debrecen        
     Internet address : huni7.cic.klte.hu                    ;
     User Info: Zoltan ;+36 52 18800                      
     Phone : +36 52 18800             ; Fax : +36 52 16783              

HUSOTE51 University of Medical Science Budapest, Hungary                   
     University of Medical Science;SOTE;Ulloi u. 26.;1085 Budapest         
     Internet address : janus.sote.hu                        ;
     User Info: Gabor ;+36 1 1141705                 
     Phone : +36 1 1141705            ; Fax : +36 1 1297866

HUSZEG11 Jozsef Attila University, Szeged, Hungary                         
     Jozsef Attila University;Computer Centre;Arpad ter 2.;H-6720
     Szeged;Hungary                
     User Info: Ferenc ;+36 62 321022
     Miklos ;+36  
     Phone : +36 62 321022            ; Fax : +36 62 322227             

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 4.2  HUNGARIAN ACADEMIC AND RESEARCH NETWORK (HUNGARNET)

 This information is also available on
<http://www.ripe.net/ripe/hungarnet.html>;.

Organisational Structure: 
 HUNGARNET is an association and also the computer network of Hungarian
institutes of higher education, research and development, libraries and
other public collections. HUNGARNET funding comes from the R&D
Information Infrastructure Program (IIF) sponsored by the Hungarian
Academy of Science, the National Committee of Technological
Development, the Ministry for Culture and Education and the National
Science Foundation. About 500 organizations have access to HUNGARNET
services. HUNGARNET as an association represents Hungary in
international networking organizations (e.g. TERENA).

Generic Services:
 HUNGARNET provides access to the Internet and several other national
network services over leased lines and the public packet switched data
network. Lot of different services (e.g. gopher, ftp, WWW, data bases)
provided by member organizations are available on the net. Centrally
supported and coordinated services are:
 - email (internet SMPT, EARN BSMTP, OSI X.400, UUCP, XXX ELLA) 
 - email gateways between the different email systems above 
 - distribution services (LISTSERV, news) 
 - information services (ftp, gopher, WWW servers, data bases) 
 - directory services (X.500) 
 - individual accounts and login

External Connectivity:  
 HUNGARNET is subscriber to EBONE and EMPB/EuropaNET as well. There are
two 64 kbps leased lines to EBONE (Vienna EBS). These two lines should
be upgraded to a single 256 kbps line in the near future.  HUNGARNET
uses two 64 kbps interfaces on the EMPB/EuropaNET node in Budapest as
well. These two interfaces should also be upgraded to a single 256 kbps
interface very soon.

Internal Connectivity: 
 Internal connectivity of HUNGARNET is based partly on the public X.25
service of the Hungarian PTT and partly on the community's private IP
backbone network (HBONE). The kernel of the HBONE infrastructure is in
Budapest, where several important organizations are connected in
different ways (64-256 kbps leased lines, 1-2 Mbps microwave links, 10
Mbps optical Ethernet, 100 Mbps FDDI). Several cities (regional
centers) in the country are also connected to the network via 64 kbps
leased lines (Miskolc, Nyiregyhaza, Debrecen, Kecskemet, Szeged, Pecs,
Veszprem) and 2 Mbps microwave (Godollo). Now there are about 50
organizations directly connected to the backbone and about 50 others
using IP over X.25. The number of the registered, connected hosts is
about ten thousand. There is an ongoing development, new regional
centers (Kaposvar, Keszthely, Szombathely, Sopron, Gyor) and several
organizations in Budapest will be connected subsequently.  Many users
do not have IP connectivity yet but are connected to the public X.25
network. There are several services (e.g. individual login, mail,
gopher, news) that are open for traditional XXX/X.25 access.

Contact Persons:
Miklos NAGY <mailto:> - head of the HUNGARNET/IIF 
					coordination office
Laszlo CSABA <mailto:> - HUNGARNET/IIF technical director
Balazs MARTOS <mailto:> - HBONE project manager
Nandor HORVATH <mailto:> - Local Internet Registry, 
				.hu top level domain contact
IP address and domain administration: <mailto:> 
Network management: <mailto:>

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 4.3  FidoNet

 FidoNet connects through sztaki.hu, as indicated above.

 There are three FidoNet nodes: Budapest NET (2:371/0); West Hungary
Net (2:372/0); and Tisza NET (2:370/0). If you want to write on the
FidoNet, chances are you already know how. *PLEASE* find out what you
are about to do instead of experimenting with the Hungarian net - don't
add to the problems for the folks in Hungary having to deal with the
underdeveloped phone system and outrageous international tolls ;-<. For
further information I post a Fido-sheet separately from this FAQ, where
there are also telephone numbers and further addresses, but again: try
to verify that you are mailing to a valid address (the BBS situation
may have changed since the copy you are reading got updated - look for
current FIDO listing on the net, or better yet contact the person you
want to reach by other means first)!. If you can send Internet email
and have the FidoNet address, you can write to it by transforming it to
appropriate .FIDONET.ORG format.

 Fidonet mail works with Hungarian BBS's but you have to know whom to
reach. I will attempt to maintain a separate Fido posting to Usenet;
please try to make sure you email to a valid address and in particular
avoid using outdated sources on Hungarian BBS's (otherwise your
misdirected trial will burden the Hungarian network coordinator!).

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 4.4  Finding out somebody's email-address in Hungary

 The bigger academic domains have on-line directories (CSO phonebooks):

Technical University, Budapest
      gopher://goliat.eik.bme.hu/11/engl/tel-adat/hazi-tele

Budapest University of Economic Sciences*
      gopher://URSUS.BKE.HU:71/11/kozgaz/telefon
(*under construction)

Semmelweis University of Medical Sciences, Budapest
      <gopher://xenia.sote.hu:105/2>

Central Research Inst. of Physics, Budapest
      <gopher://sunserv.kfki.hu:105/2>

Members of the Szeged University Association
      <gopher://sol.cc.u-szeged.hu:105/2>

Janus Pannonius University of Sciences, Pecs
      <gopher://ipiux.jpte.hu:1051/2>
	<http://ipisun.jpte.hu/cgi-bin/ph.pl>;

University of Veszprem
      <gopher://miat0.vein.hu:105/2>

 ELLA also has an on-line directory: <telnet://hugbox.sztaki.hu:203>
(i.e. address a special port). Note that the opening screen uses
special characters for the accented letters but the data records have
combinations of vowel plus ',: or " instead (i.e. searching for
hollo'si would retrieve a record, but hollosi won't)!

 If the person has registered him/herself with the RaDir database of
HIX, you might try the following (note, however, that most parts of
RaDir are badly out of date):

 - by <gopher://www.hix.com/11/HIX/radir> (a link to the same is
offered by <http://www.hix.com/hix/>; on the World Wide Web); from
inside Hungary use <gopher://hix.elte.hu/11/HIX/HIX/radir>, or
<http://hal9000.elte.hu/hix/radir.html>; (this last one is a true HTML
search form)). Under RaDir, you'll find the entire database
cross-indexed by search keys.

 - by 'finger +whois:"SEARCHWORD"@www.hix.com' you can look up records
containing "SEARCHWORD" string in the database

 - by email: send a blank message <mailto:>. You'll
receive, in several chunks, the entire database of users, their
electronic and snail-mail addresses, etc. You'll need a decent editor
to search what you're looking for.

 If you have some idea what institution to check at, you may find an
online directory service -- many are available, and could be reached
through the Hungarian gophers (or WWW sites) mentioned in section 3.
Try contacting the (electronic) postmaster, usually
, or using 'finger' to inquire about users.

 As a last resort, send in your query to a discussion group. Readers of
<news:soc.culture.magyar>, <mailto:> discussion
list (section 1.7), or some HIX-list (<mailto:> in
particular, see 2.1) may be able to help. Be aware, though, that most
participants are located abroad - especially in the case of the Usenet
group!

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 5.  ODDS AND ENDS

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 5.1  Traveling with a computer in Hungary

 The electricity is 220 V, 50 Hz. The frequency, in fact, fluctuates a
lot, but it doesn't cause any problem when operating computer devices.
(Don't trust too much your plug-in clock radios though.) If you are
from any country running on 110 V or around, due to complications in
voltage conversion, a battery driven laptop or notebook is your best
bet. However, if you decide to take your desktop system, printer, etc.,
you  have a good chance that the device can also be operated on 220 V.
Check it first before you go through unnecessary trouble. If not, you
have to apply 220 V to 110 V AC converters (you might need more than
one; check the power ratings of your devices & converters). WARNING!
Your converters should be designed for *electronic/motorized devices*.
Refuse any converter for *heating appliances* even if its power rating
is much higher! These converters are not real transformers, and can
cause major damages to your electronic devices.

 Also make sure you are able to connect to the Hungarian grounded power
outlet, because that's what's recommended for your appliances.
Therefore you should try to find grounded plug adapters and/or voltage
converters.  Connecting to ungrounded outlets causes possibly no harm,
but for your own & your devices' safety grounded connections should be
preferred.

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 5.2  Conventions & standards for coding Hungarian accents

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.0 Introduction & section overview  

 During the evolution of teletypes and computers, two character tables
survived, acquiring major importance in later computer systems. One is
EBCDIC, primarily used in ancient IBM mainframes. The other one, ASCII,
can be considered today's ubiquitous standard in computing worldwide.
The rest of this section, therefore, pays attention to ASCII code, very
unfairly ignoring EBCDIC, since none of the accent conversion programs
support neither this code table nor the CMS environment.

 Since the language of computing has been English from the beginning,
the original ASCII table was limited to the characters used in English:
letters of the Latin alphabet, a few punctuation marks and some other
special symbols. Since the number of all these characters, plus the
unprintable "control" characters (located in the first 32 positions of
the ASCII table, responsible for different control functions) doesn't
exceed 128, the real 'brilliant' idea of representing the ASCII table
in 7 bits spread like wild fire all over the computer world. No wonder,
that most of the Internet mailers and Usenet hubs are also set up to
forward documents in 7-bit ASCII only.  (Read the rest of the section
carefully to learn how to overcome these problems.) As computing and
word processing started to rise up in the rest of the world, there was
an increasing demand to represent these national characters as well. (A
good example is Hungarian. The extra consonants [nonexistent in
English] are formed by merely juxtaposing 2 (or 3 in case of dzs)
regular Latin characters; so there is no problem here.  However, the
special vowels of the language are denoted by applying different
accents on the Latin 'base-vowel', introducing new characters, the so
called accented vowels.) It's an obvious idea to place these national
characters and other fancy symbols utilizing codes 128 to 255, still
remaining within the byte limit. Different character sets have been
created by defining purpose- or language-specific characters for the
upper half of the table, while keeping the 7-bit ASCII codes unchanged.
(Note:  Some character sets also re-use codes between 0 and 31, the
domain of ASCII control characters, keeping some, or none of them.
Using these codes, however, is pretty difficult, device- and
implementation-dependent, etc.  Therefore it wouldn't be wise to put
accented characters here, but fortunately none of the sets listed below
did it actually.) Hopefully Unicode will ultimately stop this
confusion, but until then there's a long long way to go.

At this point let's clarify the terminology:

... ASCII (also 7-bit or plain ASCII) data:
Usually text (but not necessarily, see 5.2.5.1.), containing only 7-bit
ASCII characters, including the control ones.
... 8-bit (extended) ASCII data:
Text containing the uniform 7-bit ASCII characters, plus special
characters (with code greater than 127) according to one of the 8-bit
character sets.
... Binary data:
Non-text data (executables, pictures, etc.) containing any 8-bit value.

 The different kludges accepted by Internet users to denote accented
vowels in 7-bit ASCII are described in 5.2.1. The most important
extended ASCII character sets are introduced in 5.2.2. 5.2.3 shows the
accented character representations used by high-level formatting
languages. The correct ways of transferring files among word processor
[on the Net] are detailed in 5.2.4. If the data to be transferred is
not 7-bit ASCII, 5.2.5 tells you what to do. Last, but not least, 5.2.6
introduces the programs in the HIX archives (and mentions some others)
that address the problem of conversion between the various types of
accent representation.

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.1 House rules for plain (7-bit) ASCII

 If you are limited to the use of 7-bit ASCII, you have essentially the
following choices to deal with the accented characters:

5.2.1.0 No accent marks at all

 Simple and sure-fire. In fact, the most common 'solution'.

5.2.1.1 The '~" coding (also called "marking notation" or "Babai-code")
        [Sometimes nicknamed as _repu~lo"_.]

 Here's a sample:

         O~t hu"to"ha'zbo'l ke'rtu~nk szi'nhu'st
         a'rvi'ztu"ro" tu~ko~rfu'ro'ge'p
         O~t sze'p szu"zla'ny o"ru~lt i'ro't nyu'z

or, in the alternative ':" _repu:lo"_ format:

         O:t hu"to"ha'zbo'l ke'rtu:nk szi'nhu'st
         a'rvi'ztu"ro" tu:ko:rfu'ro'ge'p
         O:t sze'p szu"zla'ny o"ru:lt i'ro't nyu'z

 Quite readable, though a bit tricky to disambiguate mechanically:
remember, the " or : or ' may also serve as punctuation marks. (This
problem can be handled using Maxent's escaping capabilities, see
5.2.6.6.)

Warning! Don't get confused: in TeX (see 5.2.3.1) " denotes umlaut!

5.2.1.2 The 123 coding (also "numerical notation" or "Pro1sze1ky-code")

 Here's the same text:

         O2t hu3to3ha1zbo1l ke1rtu2nk szi1nhu1st
         a1rvi1ztu3ro3 tu2ko2rfu1ro1ge1p
         O2t sze1p szu3zla1ny o3ru2lt i1ro1t nyu1z

 The only one that's both short and unambiguous, though it takes some
getting used to. 1 stands for the stroke, 2 for the short umlaut, 3 for
the 'Hungarian' or long umlaut (double acute). Very easily converted to
other formats. (Also can be ambiguous, though with much smaller
probability. E.g. U2, CO2, , etc.)

5.2.1.3 Telegraphic style. For example,

         Oet huetoehaazbool keertuenk sziinhuust
         aarviiztueroe tuekoerfuuroogeep
         Oet szeep szuezlaany oeruelt iiroot nyuuz

 Avoid it like the plague because

1. It's ambiguous. (Think of Goethe, Oetker, Eoersi, Csooori, poeen.) 
2. Coding of o" & u" (o3 & u3) is not consistent:
   u3 = ue (fallback to u2), uue, uee, ueue
3. Absolutely not a pleasure to read.

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.2 Fancy 8-bit character sets (extended ASCII)

 The following rollcall lists the most important character sets
supported by the majority of hardware and software, including the
accent conversion programs. The available Hungarian accented characters
are detailed for each set.

Notes: 

 Henceforth when referring to an accented character, the numerical
(Pro1sze1ki) notation will be used to maintain clarity.


5.2.2.1 PC-codepages

(*) PC-437: Hardware

 The basic hardware character set of PC-compatible systems. Since it
was supposed to contain many symbols (line drawing characters, some
Greek letters, etc.), and be general, it's pretty poor in terms of
accented characters. Missing Hungarian vowels: o3, u3 [substitute them
with o^ & u^], A1 [substitute it with A-circle], I1, O1, O3, U1, U3.

(*) CWI recommendation for Hungarian accents:

A standard initiative to replace the many house rules of character code
assignment for accents unavailable in PC-437. Codes are assigned as
follows:

o3->147 [o^], u3->150 [u^], A1->143, I1->141 [i`] or 140 [I^],
O1->149 [o`], O3->167, U1->151 [u`], U3->153 [y~]

(*) PC-850: Multilingual

Contains all the accented vowels but ?3. Substitute them with ?^.
Note: ? means o, u, O or U.

(*) PC-852: Latin 2

Contains all the accented vowels. Try to use this if available.

(*) PC-860: Portuguese
(*) PC-863: Canadian-French
(*) PC-865: Nordic

These sets miss various Hungarian accents, esp. in upper case. Using
them for a Hungarian text makes absolutely no sense.

5.2.2.2 ISO character sets

 These character sets are specified by ISO standards. As far as ALL
(not only Hungarian) accented vowels concerned, ISO 8859/1, 2 & 9 is
equivalent to Windows Latin 1, 2 & 5 respectively.

(*) ISO 8859/1:
(*) ISO 8859/3:

Contain all the accented vowels but ?3. Substitute them with ?^.

(*) ISO 8859/2:

Contains all the accented vowels. Try to use this if available.

 Fonts for iso-8859-2 (and some other) character sets can be found at
<ftp://ftp.tarki.hu/pub/font/> for various operation systems, and at
<ftp://almos.vein.hu/ssa/kbd_es_font/> (mirrored at
<ftp://ftp.vma.bme.hu/pub/ssa/kbd_es_font/> and
<ftp://ftp.tarki.hu/pub/ssa/kbd_es_font/>) mostly for Unix. There is
material for Hungarianizing the Linux (and possibly other Unix variant)
operation system at <ftp://ftp.tarki.hu/pub/magyar/linux/>.

5.2.2.3 Others

The following character sets are supported by various laser printers. 
Roman-8 bears special importance as being the default character set of
many printers.

(*) Ventura International & Roman-8:
(*) MC Text:

Contain all the accented vowels but ?3. Substitute them with ?^.

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.3 Text formatting languages

 The text formatting languages listed below, beyond their powerful text
formatting capabilities, also include the specification of [almost] all
the accented characters. These languages give an alternative way of
dealing with accents in 7-bit ASCII, especially if the software that
can display, print or convert these representations is available.
[Unlike notations in 5.2.1, the "raw" files of these languages are not
intended to be read by ordinary users.]

5.2.3.1 [La]TeX. 

 Invented by D. E. Knuth, TeX (pronounce as [tech]; 'X' denotes the
Greek letter 'chi'), and the macro collection based on it, LaTeX, are
today's most popular text formatting languages for document creation
and DTP.

To continue with the same example,

 \"{O}t h\H{u}t\H{o}h\'{a}zb\'{o}l k\'{e}rt\"{u}nk sz\'{\i}nh\'{u}st

 \'{a}rv\'{\i}zt\H{u}r\H{o} t\"{u}k\"{o}rf\'{u}r\'{o}g\'{e}p

 \"{O}t sz\'{e}p sz\H{u}zl\'{a}ny \H{o}r\"{u}lt \'{i}r\'{o}t ny\'{u}z

 This is meant to be printed with TeX or previewed as a dvi file.
 Wholly unambiguous, can be automatically converted to/from several
other formats (see 5.2.6). Also check the babel system for LaTeX with
the Hungarian specific option, available from FTP sites kth.se or
goya.dit.upm.es.

5.2.3.2 HTML (HyperText Markup Language)

 Unfortunately, the HTML-2 standard still does not contain notation for
Hungarumlaut (long umlaut, double acute). We use tilde or circumflex
instead. The preferred notation is o with tilde õ and u with
circumflex û. In the example above,

   Öt hûtõházból kértünk
   színhúst

   árvíztûrõ
   tükörfúrógép

   Öt szép szûzlány õrült
   írót nyúz

5.2.3.3 RTF (Rich Text Format)

 This standard is widespread among Microsoft word processors. For
non-ASCII characters it uses the following coding:

\'XX

where XX is the code of the given ISO 8859/2 (or PC-852 for Word for
DOS) character in hexadecimal.

5.2.3.4 Adobe PostScript

 It is a universal standard for describing any kind of graphics,
including fonts, but it is aimed at producing the final (typically
printed) copy of documents and not at word-processing per se. For a
starter document see <http://www.adobe.com/PS/PS-QA.html>; or
<ftp://wilma.cs.brown.edu/pub/comp.lang.postscript/FAQ.txt> or
<ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet-by-group/comp.answers/postscript/faq/part1-4>.
If one has the right accented fonts sets then, in theory, the output is
transferable between different machines - but often we run into hurdles
in practice.

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.4 Microcomputer products: The word processors 

 Different word processors on different microcomputers use several
proprietary internal control sequences to handle accented characters,
as much as other symbols, and other text formatting commands. If you
want to transfer a document like this, you have to convert this [very
probably] binary file (8-bit ASCII with all kinds of binary crap) to
text (7-bit ASCII), see 5.2.5.1, unless your mailer can handle binary
directly, see 5.2.5.2. Make sure, however, that the recipient of your
document also possesses the same or equivalent word processor, or a
word processor supporting the format you used.

 It might happen that you want to use your document in another word
processing system, or a plain text editor. Today's word processors
offer conversion to a few formats, and also pure text with different
character sets (5.2.2). The resulting file, if necessary, can be
converted further to 7-bit ASCII as shown in 5.2.6. (The output is
already 7-bit ASCII in Microsoft's RTF, see 5.2.3.3.)

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.5 Switching binary to ASCII and vice versa

5.2.5.1 Uuencode & uudecode

 The easiest and most popular way of conversion between binary and
ASCII is the use of the twin sisters uuencode and uudecode. These
programs were created originally for Unix ('uu' stands for Unix to
Unix), but today they are implemented under most platforms.

 Uuencode makes an ASCII file out of a binary one, forming 61 character
long lines to avoid problems excessively long lines can cause in the
different mailer agents. This conversion increases the size of the file
by 40%.  Warning! Understand the really goofy usage of uuencode. The
parameters specify the local & remote BINARY filenames respectively.
The encoded ASCII result is sent to the standard output, it has to be
redirected into a file explicitly. (E.g. uuencode myface.gif myface.gif
> myface.uue )

 Uudecode converts the encoded ASCII file back to binary. It is smart:
using the "begin" and "end" tags placed in the encoded file, uudecode
is able to retrieve the encoded information automatically discarding
everything before and after the tags (headers, signatures, other junk),
even if it's inserted in the middle of the Encyclopedia Britannica. Its
usage is also simple: only the input filename has to be specified; the
original filename is restored from the "begin" tag. (E.g. uudecode
yourface.mal )

5.2.5.2 MIME support

 Many modern mailers support the MIME (Multipurpose Internet Mail
Extensions) standard being able to transfer different file formats
beyond plain text. In this case the ASCII/binary conversion is the
mailer's internal affair. Some mailers make explicit calls to uuencode
and uudecode, some others (e.g. PINE) have different built in
conversion algorithms, trying to choose the most appropriate one for
the given binary file. (One type of MIME encoding substitutes an
unprintable character by its code in hexadecimal, preceded by an =
sign. That's why you often see them splattered around.) In either case,
however, the user is not responsible for the conversion, the mailer
takes care of it automatically.

5.2.5.3 Binhex

 BinHex files are 7-bit ASCII text files, typically used for encoding
Macintosh binaries. Conversion is done by various applications, see eg.
<ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet-by-group/comp.answers/macintosh/general-faq>.

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.6 Translating between various accent formats

 From the HIX archives (see section 3) the following programs are
available.  The regular location is 
<http://www.hix.com/hix/hixcore/senddoc/info/programs/>;, though
you should also check <http://www.hix.com/hix/hixcore/senddoc/new/>; 
for updates. At the time of this writing the SENDDOC archive is 
extremely ill-organized and outdated in many parts, including, 
unfortunately, the 'new' directory.

 Warning! From abroad always access the HIX archives via 
<http://www.hix.com/hix/hixcore/senddoc/>;,
<gopher://www.hix.com/11/HIX/senddoc>,
<mailto:>, or 'finger '
(the latter only works for text, and you may have to redirect it to a
pager or file). The mirror at <gopher://hix.elte.hu> is updated only at
certain periods of time, also there is a limited bandwidth on the lines
connecting Hungary to the world (see section 4).

5.2.6.1 ekezettelenites

 Gabor Toth's UNIX shell script for deleting unwanted accents from mail
files.

5.2.6.2 etex

 Gabor Toth's shareware C source code for converting the marking or
numerical accent notation to TeX-format. It also claims to be capable
of hyphenation. Supports the UNIX platform.

5.2.6.3 hion

 Peter Verhas's C source code. It's an improved version of etex, as it
reduces the probability of incorrect hyphenation with some built-in
exception library. Hion is able to do the conversion between the
numerical (or, redefining each accent mark, also the marking) accent
notation & TeX-format, and remove accents if the input is an accent
notation. Read his documentation. Supported platforms: VMS, MS-DOS,
UNIX. Available from <ftp://ftp.tarki.hu/pub/magyar/TeX/hion.tar.gz>
or <ftp://ftp.digital.bme.hu/hion/>.

5.2.6.4 drtc.c

 Peter Verhas's freeware C source for conversion between text and RTF
(Rich Text Format), character sets ISO 8852/2 (Latin 2), PC-852 (Latin
2) and CWI. The program attempts to find out the inbound format
automatically, RTF or text as well as used character set. The outbound
format is the same as the inbound format, the program changes only the
character set. In other words, the program does not convert from RTF ot
text or from text to RTF. Supported platforms: VMS, MS-DOS, & UNIX and
other platforms supporting ANSI C.

5.2.6.5 hun.c

 Gabor Ligeti's freeware C source code for accent removal and
conversion between the marking & numerical accent notation, TeX-format
and PC-852 (Latin 2) codepage. Warning! Conversion capabilities are not
orthogonal, type hun /? for the supported conversions. No platform
limitations are indicated.

5.2.6.6 MAXENT.UUE_V6.0a

 Peter Csaszar's freeware C source code compressed with pkzip & encoded
with uuencode (see 5.2.5.1). Warning! As of 6/12/95, the HIX gopher's
/HIX/SENDDOC/info/programs directory still contains 'maxent.c', the
very old version V1.4 of Maxent. Don't touch this file, go for version
V6.0a, currently in <http://www.hix.com/hix/hixcore/senddoc/new/MAXENT.Z>;.

 Maxent provides 100% orthogonality in conversion between any of the
accent notations listed in 5.2.1 but telegraphic style, and any of the
character sets listed in 5.2.2, allowing multiple notations in the
input file. The domain of conversion includes 6 vowels and 6 accent
types, applying therefore a house rule extension of the marking and
numerical accent notations. (Hoping that this extension becomes widely
accepted, no longer remaining a house rule.) Language accent profiles
other than the default Hungarian can be selected. Further accent
services include accent notation escaping & de-escaping (see 5.2.1.1),
and flexible substitution of the o3 etc. characters.

 Beyond some little services, the rest of the major features provide
comprehensive retabulation strategies, full newline conversion
capabilities and script file execution (ideal for maintaining mail
folders after download).

 The help given by the program can be saved into a file by typing
maxent -h0 > maxent.hlp . Print this file for fancy bedtime reading.

 Maxent supports only the MS-DOS environment, and should be compiled by
a Borland C compiler. This is the sacrifice for the extensive services
provided.

5.2.6.7 ekezet.dot

 Via anonymous <ftp://bme-tel.ttt.bme.hu/pub/income/ekezetes/>, you can
find Kornel Umann's WinWord template capable of many kinds of
conversion.  Also find other goodies in the directory above.

5.2.6.8 hixiso

 Olivier Clary's Unix scripts for converting accented text appearing
on HIX are at <ftp://almos.vein.hu/ssa/kbd_es_font/hixiso.tar.gz>.

- - ------------------------------

Subject:  5.3 Information sources pertaining to the rest of Central Europe

 This section is by no means to be comprehensive. For a big but dated
(1992) list see
<gopher://poniecki.berkeley.edu/00/archives/polish.archives/Network/EE-MotherLi
st>.

 Both OMRI and CET cover the general region in their news. See Section
1.1 and 1.2, respectively.

 To complement the HUNGARY list (see Section 1.7), at the same listserv
at Buffalo there exist the Middle European discussion list MIDEUR-L as
well as POLAND-L and SLOVAK-L. Send the usual command to
<mailto:> (or simply  on
BITNET):

      SUBSCRIBE listname-L Yourfirstname Yourlastname.

 On Usenet there is soc.culture.romanian, soc.culture.czecho-slovak,
soc.culture.polish, and the gatewayed bit.listserv.mideur-l and
bit.listserv.slovak-l; bit.listserv.hungary has been established, but
many sites do not have it. The surest way to receive everything is via
email. If you prefer using Usenet newsreaders you find HIX's HUNGARY
digests posted to soc.culture.magyar (which group does not seem to
suffer the poor propagation affecting some of the bit.listserv
groups).  Please notice that while the listserv groups are
bi-directionally gatewayed, i.e. posts to them get propagated back to
the original mailing list, the posts coming from HIX to
soc.culture.magyar are mere copies of the mailing list messages - do
not reply to the newgroups since your answer won't reach the email
readers (who constitute a likely large majority).

 Speaking of limitations of distribution be aware that some commercial
Internet connection providers (most blatantly American Online)
established their own groups with topics overlapping existing Usenet
hierarchy. The utility of these local groups is seriously limited since
they are, unlike the open real Usenet newsgroups such as those
mentioned above, unavailable to anyone but their own subscribers (i.e.
a small domestic fraction of all the Internet/Usenet users worldwide).
Please do not post to non-local groups saying how nice would be to use
these specialized forums - we can not. Use the newsgroup
soc.culture.magyar or the mailing lists!

 The Central European Regional Research Organization (CERRO) can be
joined at <mailto:> with the command
SUBSCRIBE CERRO-L Firstname Lastname.  This is a scholarly group that
deposits papers and the like in an electronic archive in Vienna.  The
archive is accessible with anonymous <ftp://wu-wien.ac.at>, or with
<gopher://gopher.wu-wien.ac.at>.

 The Eastern Europe Business Network ) is
primarily remarkable for its size (1700+ subscribers). Messages tend to
be brief bursts of announcements, questions and, unsurprisingly, calls
for or queries about business. The list is administered by Yale's Civic
Education Project (Chris Owen, <mailto:>). To
subscribe, send a message to the address
<mailto:> that has

             subscribe e-europe YourFirstName YourLastName
in its body.

 The repository for Voice of America material, accessible with
<gopher://gopher.voa.gov>, also contains some information and news
items relevant to the region.

 Check the NATO archive for goodies: <gopher://gopher.nato.int>.

 The Slovakia Document Store will answer all your questions about
Slovakia:  on the World Wide Web, <http://www.eunet.sk>;, via
<gopher://gopher.eunet.sk>, via <ftp://ftp.eunet.sk/slovakia/>, via
gophermail: send a message with Subject: HELP
<mailto:>.
 
- - ------------------------------
 
Subject: 5.4  Hungarian radio and television broadcasts available
 
 See the separate document "Hungarian broadcast information FAQ",
available at <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/broadcast>; as well
as in the Usenet archives.

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 6.  CONTRIBUTORS TO THIS FAQ

(the order is alphabetical by last name)

Beke Tibor     <mailto:>           general layout, 2.1, 5.3
Bruner, Rick   <mailto:>     1.3
Csaszar Peter  <mailto:>   5.1, 5.2
Fabian Peter   <mailto:> 3.1, 4.1, 4.4
Fekete Zoli    <mailto:>           much of the rest
Hewes, Cameron <mailto:>      1.2
Hollo Kriszta  <mailto:>         4.2
Saghi-Szabo Gotthard <mailto:>, section 1.8
Toth, Joseph   <mailto:>, section 2.3
Umann Kornel   <mailto:>        5.2
Varnum, Ken    <mailto:>       1.1

 If you have a question or remark regarding some specific section, you
may want to contact its author. The FAQ as such continues to be
maintained by Zoli Fekete <mailto:>. The keeper hereby
expresses the many thanks we all owe to every contributor - and above
all to Tibor Beke who brought about this cooperative effort, and took
upon consolidating the whole (with Peter Csaszar who took over the
next-to-last editing). Still, any errors (with the exception of the
independently maintained section 2.3) are the responsibility of Zoli -
who'd like to hear all corrections, recommendations or just comments
readers may have!
 Acknowledgement is also due here to Jozsef Hollosi and Arpad Palotas,
for providing webspace to this FAQ on the HIX server and helping to
improve its homepage, respectively.

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 7.      How to read this FAQ - what's in there < ~!@#$%^&* >

 One of these days ;-) there will be a guide here about how to handle
all the strange things that you may see embedded in this text; but in
the meantime, if you don't know yet what URLs are and are not reading a
copy thru a WWW browser that may show a selectable link: just do the
sensible thing and use email to access 'mailto:' addresses, ftp for
'ftp:' and telnet for 'telnet:'...

 Updated versions of this document will be in
<http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/posted>;
or <ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet/news.answers/hungarian-faq>. Notice
that the canonical Usenet archive <ftp://rtfm.mit.edu> is often
overloaded - if you can't get connected try one of the mirror sites (of
which a list by countries can be found in
<ftp://mirrors.aol.com/pub/rtfm/usenet/news.answers/news-answers/introduction>
that is also available thru the RTFM mail-server shown below) - eg.
<ftp://mirrors.aol.com/pub/rtfm/usenet/news.answers/hungarian-faq> in
the USA! You can also retrieve it via <mailto:>
with the command "send usenet/news.answers/hungarian-faq" in the body
of the message, or via 'finger '.
 A brief extract of hungarian-faq, concentrating on the email services,
is also available now
<http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/hungarian-faq-pointer>; or 
'finger '.
 A separate document on network service providers in Hungary
prepared independently by John Horvath <mailto:> is
available via email from its author or via
<http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/comm-providers>;.

 This hungarian-faq is expected to be updated at least every couple of
months, due to the rapid changes occuring on the net. If you are
reading a copy whose 'Last-modified:' date shown on top is older than
that then many parts may be out of date - in this case get the recent
one from the sources listed above, and/or try to convince the
administrator of the site keeping the old copy to freshen it. Please
notice that retrieving from the Usenet archives is likely a lot faster
than asking me personally (and most everything I can answer is already
in here)! If you do write me <mailto:>, then give a
descriptive 'Subject:' line - keep in mind that much of my incoming
email deemed unworthy by me is deleted unread in order to keep up with
the high volume I am receiving (most of it from various mailing
lists). The best way to ensure catching my attention - and to allow
automatized pre-processing - is to start it with 'ZFIX:' (the name my
mail-handler answers to is Zophisticated Free Information eXchange, in
case you were wondering :-)).

 This work as a collection is copyright (1990-96) Zoli Fekete, and
parts are copyright of their respective authors. Please do not
redistribute substantial portions without contacting the maintainer.
 Since February 14, 1996 this document is authenticated 
by my secure public-key encrypted electronic signature 
(see <http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp>; for details), 
 the public key for which is shown in the WWW link 
<http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/pgp-key.asc>; 
and is also attached to the end of the text available via
 'finger '!
 Unauthorized publishing in off-line media - such as printed, CD-ROM or 
magnetic databases - is explicitly prohibited!  

URL: <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
Archive-name: hungarian/faq
Soc-culture-magyar-archive-name: faq
Last-modified: 1996/07/04
Version: 1.50
Posting-Frequency: every fifteen days

- - --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
 <'finger '> 

SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!

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 wrote 
> Hatha most az itteni holgyek haragjat is hivom ki magam ellen, szerintem
> a lengyel nok nem maradnak el semmiben sem a magyaroktol, so"t!

Valtozik a vilag!  
Az en idomben a magyar lanyoknal a vilagon szebbet nem talaltal.
Ugy latszik, hogy miutan elmentem othonrol....
Udv: Istvan

Just a  friendly little reminder for everyone's benefit: what you've read
there is an outright invitation to join in the Pyramid-scam! If you join
in you are an outright loser.Besides it is illegal in the US!!  So DON'T
CHECK IT OUT!!! Just ask any Albanian who lost everything to their
government the same way!!
This is a scam, a sham so DON'T BE AN IDIOT by joining it!!!
Balazs

Hungarian American Association > writes:
>Subject: Hardware problems

>Dear subscribers,
>Our apologies, but due to hardware problems of our central computer -
>mineral.umd.edu - there will be discontinuity in the distribution of the
>following lists:
<STUFF DELETED>
>          ,
>          

>There will be no disruption in the distribution of our regular lists:
<STUFF DELETED>
>unicum

Szo'val a Soc meg a Cultura abbamarad, de az Unicum me'g folyik!
 A'ldasse'k Zwack neve!  :-)
GK

Etel Ital Tanc Uszomedence 135 acres Magyar elet. Hozd a satrad vagy
berelj szobat a tanyan. Rt 100 Hereford ket villanyoszlop a magyar zaszlo
szinere van festve ott fordulj be es menj Kb 1.5 mile a jobb oldalon a
tanya. latod a magyar cimert.

 E-mail ha kell tobb info

In article >,
Peter  > wrote:
>Cristian Chelariu wrote:
>> 
>> Your country brought death, distruction, loss of individual freedom and
>> dignity and economic stagnation for all the nations in Eastern Europe. If
>> I would be in your place, I would keep my mouth shut and lower my head in
>> shame. 
>
>yeah right. And where were you guys all the time? It's sure easy
>to blame everything on Russians. Wasn't Chaushesku Romanian?
>Wasn't Kadar Hungarian? Honeker - German? Yaruzel'ski - Polish?
>
>And don't tell me their regimes wouldn't survive without Soviet help.
>Perhaps you heard that Austria and Norway were liberated from Nazis
>by Soviet troops. They just had the guts to say no to commies.
>And you didn't until 80s.
>
>So it's probably you who should shup up and lower your head in shame.


     And plus this "nice" idea of collective guilt.
      One who lives today has to "lower head in shame" for
      what has happened 50 years ago. Sounds familiar, isn't it!


Elena

Archive-name: hungarian/comm-providers
Soc-culture-magyar-archive-name: comm-providers
Version: 1.31
Posting-Frequency: monthly
Last-modified: 1996/06/23
URL: http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/comm-providers

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 A frequently occuring question on soc.culture.magyar (and on mailing
lists related to Hungary) is how to get connected to the net in
Hungary. This document by John Horvath gives a comprehensive overview
of the situation. (Notice that I - Zoli Fekete, keeper of hungarian-faq
- - handle the distribution of this article, but the content is
maintained by its author; for contact information see the end of this
post or use its 'Reply-to:' address!)


          Commercial On-Line Services in Hungary: an overview


Revised: Wed  04-03-96


0.  ELLA
1.  CompuServe
2.  EUnet
3.  DataNet
4.  ProNet
5.  iSYS Hungary
6.  Internet Hungary
7.  Magnet
8.  MATAV
9.  Commerical WWW Servers
10. Hungarian BBS lisitng

 ---------------------------------------------------------

0. ELLA

<blurb>
This was the very first e-mail system Hungarians had access to. It's a
home-grown central mailbox system that individual users, universities
and research institutions can connect to. It used to be a closed system
in where e-mail access was possible via a gateway. Since last summer,
however, ELLA has been put on the HELKA server of the National
Information Infrastructure Development Program (Hungarian acronym: NIIF)
in an effort to modernize the system.

Unlike most public e-mail systems, the address syntax is based on both
the user's mailbox number as well as part of a user's name. A sample
address is as follows:

h [postbox number] [first three letters of the user's name] @ella.hu.

Example: a person called Horvath Janos with a mailbox number of 444
would quote his address as .

This is only necessary for users not on ELLA. ELLA users can just type
in the mailbox number (in the aforemntioned example, just 444 is
necessary).

ELLA is available in Hungarian and English, and there is a possibility
of obtaining an off-line reader called BUTELLA. The program has some
limitations: maximum connection speed is 9600 and modem access only
works from COM1 and COM2. Since ELLA is sponsored by the NIIF, most
higher educational institutions and libraries have ELLA, making it a
very accessible and affordable (i.e. free) connection for students and
teachers.


<specifics>
Contact: PLEASE Kft. (more specific information on pricing will be
=09 forthcoming)
Postmaster: .
Method of Connection: The system can be accessed by either a modem or a
dedicated X25 line, up to a speed of 9600.


<notes>
On-line phonebook:  telnet hugbox.sztaki.hu 203  For ELLA users,
addresses within the same system can be searched either by name, number,
or institution.

Within ELLA, there are possibilities of sending messages encoded (ideal
for non-ASCII characters and small programs), express, and registered.
Registered messages sent to an ELLA address sends a receipt only when
the other person has actually read it; to other addresses, receipts are
sent only when the other system (not the user) has received the message.
The maximum size that a message can be sent is 64K.




1. CompuServe

<blurb>
Since September 1993, the US-based CompuServe, the world's largest
commercial online service, has had a local dial-in node in Budapest.
Subsequent to a transfer of the franchise from the bankrupt
Microsystem to Middle Europe Networks, backed by Esther Dyson's
EDventure Holdings, the node went down for about six months but
resumed service in February, 1995. The basic connect charge for the
service is relatively expensive ($7/hour by day, $4/hr by night @
2400 bps or slower; $16/hr by day, $12/hr by night @ 9600 bps, the
fastest the node supports), on top of other value-added connect
charges that apply. Nonetheless, the local office reports about 1,600
subscribers by November, 1995, far more than any other local online
service.

In addition to CompuServe's myriad online resources -- dozens of
databases, news, travel reservation, shopping, games, computer customer
service, and hundreds of professional and hobby discussion forums --
there are a few areas of specialized Hungarian information, as well.
Chief among these is the new (October, 1995) Hungary Forum (GO HUNGARY).
There, Magyars both in Hungary and abroad, as well as many curious
non-Hungarians, engage in long-winded discussions about life in general
and a few specifics. There is an attached library with a growing cache
of uploaded files including financial information, news reports,
specially Magyarized software utilities, maps, etc.

The Travel Forum (GO TRAVSIG) also has an Eastern Europe section, where
tourists and travel buffs exchange advice on trips not only through
Hungary but the entire region. A search of the library with key-word
"Hungary" yields a dozen-odd travel logs of visits to the country.

<specifics>
Method of connection: switched phone lines + 2400-9600 bps modem.

Services:
Email, some 2000 databases, 60 magazines and journals, encyclopeadias,
wire news, home shopping, airline and hotel reservations etc. There is
also use of the Internet services (telnet, ftp, WWW, Usenet) at no extra
charge.

Prices:
$9.95 USD per month. This includes 5 free hours of connect time (for new
subscribers, the very first month has 10 free hours of connect time). If
you exceed the five hours, you are then charged accordingly, the minimum
charge being $2.95 per hour. You can't carry over unused connect time to
the next month; you start afresh with another five hours. The rates for
connection charges are as follows:

At 2400 baud from 8.00 am. to 7.00 pm. 7$/hour, nighttime 4$/hour.
On a higher speed from 8.00 am. to 7.00 pm. 16$/hour, nighttime 12$/hour.
=20
Compuserve now offers a "Super Value Plan": for a monthly fee is 24.95$,
you receive 20 hours of free connect time.

Contact:
Middle Europe Network Kft./CompuServe Hungary
Budapest 1022
Beg u. 3-5.

Tel: (36-1) 175-6483 or (36-1) 212-4612, 212-0639
Fax: (06-1) 175-6483
Email: 

<notes>
Although you may access "free" services within Compuserve and stay
within your five hour limit, you must also calculate on the following
extra costs: local phone charges and an additional "network usage"
charge. This "network usage charge" is applicable to all Compuserve
users who connect through a Compuserve access phone number outside the
US and Canada. You can circumvent this network usage charge if you
connect to Compuserve from the Internet (i.e. telnet compuserve.com);
however, under such circumstances you can only use Compuserve in
terminal emulation mode, thus restricting some of the things you can do
(such as uploading or downloading files).

One advantage of Compuserve is that its list of access phone numbers is
truly global, making it possible to keep in touch from almost anywhere
in the world.




2. EUnet

<blurb>

<specifics>

Method of connection: switched phone lines + 2400 -28800bps
modem; leased (digital) lines; X.25; ISDN

Services: full Internet; electronic mail; ftp-mail; EUnet News;
program library; EUnet Traveller; Emil, a Hungarian-language
email program for PC's on the net.

Prices:
Email only: 4000 Ft/month + 1000 Ft/MB (first MB is free).
Full Internet for a single computer (SLIP/PPP): 4000 Ft/month + 500 Ft/hour
(first hour is free).
Full Internet for a whole network (SLIP/PPP): 10,000 Ft/month + 1000 Ft/hou=
r.
Leased lines or X.25: 10 000 Ft/month + flat rate according to bandwidth.

Contact:
EUnet Hungary , Hollo Krisztina, 1035 Budapest Miklos ter 1.
Tel: (06-1) 269-8281
Fax: (06-1) 269-8288
Email: 

<notes>




3. DataNet

<blurb>
DataNet is the SprintNet service provider for Hungary. Their SprintNet
connections are dual 64Kb lines, one to Vienna and the other to
Washington, D.C., and they provide an Internet link via a direct 128K
satellite connection to New York, as well as a direct 64Kb link into the
Hungarian network. They have a network of Cisco routers which enables
them to provide IP network connectivity services on a dial and dedicated
basis.

DataNet offers services in Budapest, Mislolc, Szeged, Debreden and Gyor.
They provide a direct Interactive Internet service on both a dial and
dedicated basis. Since they have their own server, they are also able to
run a local Internet mail service. Furthermore, being the service
provider for SprintNet, they also offer Worldwide SprintNet connectivity
(X.25) and Worldwide SprintMail Email (X.400) services.


<specifics>
Prices:

DataNet has two billing options. Both options are for a full Interactive
Internet service and includes IP address, SHELL/SLIP/PPP and Email.
There is no registeration fee.

Billing Package "A"
=09Monthly fee: 4,000 HUF (includes one free hour connect time)
=09Connect fee: 800 HUF
=09Mail Storage: First 2MB free, each additional MB is 500 HUF

Billing Package "B"
=09Monthly fee: 15,000 HUF
=09Connect fee: 500 HUF
=09Mail Storage: First 2MB free, each additional MB is 500 HUF


Contact:
Graur Tamas
Budapest, 1023 Zsigmond ter 10.
Tel: 269-7373
Fax: 269-7022
Email: 

<notes>
They are continuing to install more sites in Hungary, with the aim of
eventually covering all 19 regions on a continual basis. Also, users of
other Internet service providers who move their service over to DataNet
will have not have to pay the monthly fee for the first month.




4. ProNet

<blurb>

<specifics>
Prices:
No sign-on fee. Graduated pricing: $35 for 5 hours, $75 for 20 hours of
connection.

Contact:
Robert D Line
Budapest, 1053 Magyar utca 11.
Tel: 266-7039
Fax: 118-4365
Email: 

<notes>




5. iSYS Hungary

<blurb>
iSYS Hungary is a full service Internet provider based in Budapest and a
PIPEX partner, which means they are part of a group of companies
providing Internet access throughout Europe. They currently run a 64kbps
digital leased line to Unipalm Pipex, in London, as well as a 128kbps
connection to the Hungarian backbone (HBONE), offering high-speed access
to other Hungarian servers and users of the Internet. By the end of this
year, iSYS hopes to upgrade their leased line to 128kbps. They are also
currenly installing another 64kbps line to Washington, which is planned
to be operational before the end of this year. By summer 1996, iSYS
hopes to have their continent-wide roaming service running; this would
allow you to use the Internet from anywhere in Europe, but pay only one
bill in Hungary.

Customers using the EasyCall pager service can now receive email messages
from the Internet. This service is a joint development of EasyCall Kft and
iSYS Hungary Kft.


<specifics>
Prices:
Prices are based on fixed rates, which means they don't charge according
to the number of users on your network, the time spent online, or the
amount of data they send. The following are prices for iSYS Hungary's
most popular Internet accounts. For a complete price list, you can send
a blank email message to > or contact a human sales
representative at >.

28.8k LAN access - 39,200 HUF/month
14.4k LAN access - 34,125 HUF/month
  * a mailbox for every user on your network
  * no extra charges for time and traffic
  * 3 MB of server space for WWW or FTP
  * 25% discount on the Instant Internet LAN bridge (see notes)

14.4k limited access - 9,975 HUF/month
  * full Internet access from 7 pm to 7 am and all holidays and weekends
  * no extra charges for time and traffic
  * 1 MB of server space for WWW or FTP


Contact:
Edward Schmidt
Budapest, 1051 Sas utca 9.
Tel: 266-6090
Fax: 266-6131
Email: 

<notes>

Instant Internet  >
- ----------------
The Performance Technology Instant Internet box offers hassle-free
dial-up and dedicated LAN Internet access at a fraction of the cost of
traditional methods. The Instant Internet box contains a 14.4k US
Robotics modem (the 28.8k version will be available soon), so no
additional hardware is necessary for dial-up access. If necessary, a
simple and inexpensive single-port router connects to the Instant
Internet unit to provide hassle-free dedicated connectivity. The Instant
Internet unit can be easily installed onto your Ethernet, and provides
full Internet access on-demand to all LAN users. Instant Internet uses
your native LAN protocol (such as Novell's IPX), and therefore requires
no configuration on any machine on the network. Instant Internet also
offers unbeatable security for your network data.




6. Internet Hungary

<blurb>

<specifics>
[this info may be seriously outdated]

Method of connection:
Switched or leased phone lines + 2400-16800 bps modem; VSAT; X.25 planned.

Services:
Full Internet as well as email.

Prices:
Email only: 1200 [3500????] Ft/month

SLIP: 6000 Ft/month + 500 Ft/hour
UUCP: 6000 Ft/month + 500 Ft/MB,
leased line: 8000 Ft/month + 500-1000 Ft/hour. Prices do not include VAT.

Contact:
ODIN Informacios Szolgaltato Kft., Molnar Erzsebet.
Tel/fax: (06-1) 216-5609
Email: 

<notes>
Odin Kft. has been providing email and SLIP services since 1994.
It merged with Microsystem Telecom in the spring of 1995, and changed its
name to Internet Hungary.




7. Magnet

<blurb>
MagNet is primarily an Internet e-mail provider, that is, a low-cost,
easy-to-use email service. There are no surcharges, connect-time
charges, or per message charges. MagNet offers a no-charge database that
is especially useful for Hungary's English-speaking community
(especially Budapest's expatriate community) which contains information
indispensible for those living and working in the country: the full
English language text of legislation concerning work and residence
permits; a guide to Hungarian income tax for expats; primers on
obtaining AFA (sales tax) refunds; a lists of hospitals, clinics and
English-speaking doctors; a list of all embassies in Budapest and their
phone numbers; and foreign exchange rates for 20 currencies for each day
since January 1st, 1992. Files are updated and new files are added
regularly.

MagNet can be used with a minimum of online connection time. Although it
is is possible to read and write e-mail while online, it is possible
(and recommended) to use an off-line reader whereby messages can be
prepared beforehand and then uploaded, and at the same time download any
messages that might be waiting. In this way, only a minute or two is
spent online (freeing up the line for other subscribers) which reduces
costs. Although there are no connect time charges on Magnet, you must
nevertheless pay the usual telephone company charges for your calls.

<specifics>
Services:
Internet email.

Prices:
* 1,200 HUF per month for up to 100 KB of Internet messages
                                (a full page of text is about 2kb)
* 1,700 HUF per month for 100 kb - 250 kb
                                (most of our users are in this category)
* 2,000 HUF per month for 250 kb - 1 megabyte, and 1000 fts per additional
  half megabyte. Local usage (e-mail between MagNet users) is unlimited
  and free.

Contact:
Fred Leber
Tel: (1) 251-5245
Email: 

<notes>
Magnet provides a software program called MOMS (MagNet Offline Mail
System), or users can use another offline program if they prefer. MOMS
automatically compresses and decompresses your messages, transmitting a
full page of text in approximately a half second.




8. MATAV

<blurb>
MATAV is the acronym of the Hungarian Telecommunications Company and has
recently made plans to become a commercial online service provider.

Upon completion of the national digital backbone network, the Managed
Leased Line and the ISDN networks is expected to soon appear. In this
way MATAV hopes to be able to introduce the Internet and the other value
added services (such as X.400, EDI, multimedia) on the basis of the
existing data transmission services (such as X.25) and the planned
modern leased line, Frame Relay and ATM services.

MATAV intends to become "the service provider of the service providers",
i.e. the service provider of the existing and the future Hungarian
Internet providers through the maintenance of a high speed international
access and the peering exchange keeping the national traffic within the
borders of Hungary. At the same time, the end users will also be able to
buy full Internet service from MATAV.

The appearance of MATAV as a commercial online service provider has
raised concerns among those in the business. Being the nation's primary
telephone company, it clearly has an unfair advantage on the market. In
many ways, the "bullying" tactics of MATAV mirrors that of Microsoft;
considering that Bill Gates held consultive talks with MATAV officials
during his visit to Hungary in 1995, there is no doubt that MATAV picked
up a few pointers from the chairman of Microsoft.


<specifics>
Services: MATAV has a broad and detailed outline of the services it
hopes to be able to provide.

Direct Internet service
- -----------------------
There are three options for this type of service. The first one is where
a user will get a TCP/IP shell access point at his service access point.
The user may have his own IP address or address range, available from
MATAV upon request. TCP/IP access will be on a "guaranteed" band width.
The requested band width must be at least 64 kbps or a multiplication of
that width by an integer number, within the current maximum capacity.
MATAV guarantees that the band widths rented by the users will not
exceed the prevailing international band width by more than 10 per cent.
The router set up at the customer premises would be connected to the
router of MATAV installed at the corresponding premises of the company
through the use of digital leased line service (leased line, managed
leased line, X.25, etc.).

The second alternative is the possibility of using national and
international TCP/IP access on an average band width. A user of this
service rents international TCP/IP access from MATAV on a band width of
his choice. The requested band width can not be smaller than 64 kbps.
MATAV's router would direct incoming traffic within the specified band
width to the international or the national backbone network. MATAV
agrees extend capacity when the average utilization of the line
connecting the router and the backbones exceeds 65 per cent. In this
way, the outgoing band width may be considerably smaller than the sum of
the incoming (sold) band widths, however, when the utilization is
relatively levelled off or when the initial traffic is smaller,
sufficient response times can be guaranteed. For this service, the
router set up at the customer premises is connected to the router of
MATAV installed at the corresponding premises of the company through the
use of leased data transmission service.

Finally, there is the option of TCP/IP access on a switched line. In
this case, the user of purchases non-permanent TCP/IP access from MATAV
on a band width and in the form of access determined by his demands. The
workstation of the user is connected to the special port ensuring
SLIP/PPP network algorithm of the equipment set up at the premises of
MATAV through a switched line (telephone, ISDN, packet switched
network). The user may use the services offered by Internet on his own
computer with the assistance of the special client software, which is
capable of accepting Internet services, displaying the data in an
appropriate format and forwarding the responses and the commands of the
user to the network.


Indirect Internet service
- -------------------------
For this type of service, the user gets a standard terminal shell
accessible by a terminal emulation software. The user won't have his
own IP address.


Internet server provisions
- --------------------------
Internet specific services available on the server(s) will be set up at
the appropriate MATAV premises. These include E-Mail, Shell client
programs (telnet, ftp, news, gopher) as well as FTP, gopher, news
server, WWW, and a name server.

TCP/IP peering exchanges
- ------------------------
MATAV plans to establish one or more exchanges which guarantees that
those Hungarian Internet service providers who use this service can
interchange domestic traffic among one another. In this way, it plans to
keep the domestic IP traffic within Hungary. Since this service offers
mutual advantages to the users (MATAV being is one of them), it can be
used practically free of charge. The only condition is that the users
must agree to those conditions of connection which the first users
(MATAV being is one of them) defined at the start.

Users will be able to establish their own router in the peering exchange
of MATAV, to which the router set up at its premises is connected
through leased line data transmission service. The respective interface
of the router in the exchange is connected to the neutral ethernet (data
transmission ring) segment of the exchange. The user is not capable of
providing direct services from this router.


Prices: the following are the planned prices for all of MATAV's
prospective services. General note: prices do not include network access
fees. Leased lines etc, are charged as usual. Access through PSTN is
charged as a local phone call.

Guaranteed bandwidth internatinal access:
600 000 Ft/month/64kbs
1100 000 Ft/month/128kbs

Peering:
5.000 HUF/month

Average bandwidth national and international TCP/IP access:
Two packages
A: pay as you go: low monthly fee + traffic fee
B: a higher monthly fee, no traffic fee

___________________________________________________________________________=
___
                            A                     |             B
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
         |   month         |  traffic             | monthly fee | traffic
         |  interface fee  |                      |             |
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
64 kbs   |    40.000 Ft    | 600 MB/mo 60 Ft/Mb   |   95.000 Ft |   -
         |                 | over 600 M: 30 Ft/Mb |             |
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
128 kbs  |    60.000 Ft    | 1500 MB/mo 60 Ft/Mb  |  195.000 Ft |   -
         |                 | over 1500 : 30 Ft/Mb |             |
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
512 kbs  |    100.000 Ft   | 4500 Mb/mo 60 Ft/Mb  |  595.000 Ft |   -
         |                 | over 4500 : 30 Ft/Mb |             |
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
2 Mbs    |    130.000 Ft   | 10000 Mb/mo 60 Ft/Mb |  995.000 Ft |   -
         |                 | over 10000  30 Ft/Mb |             |
___________________________________________________________________________=
___

Individual mail e.g  :
800 Ft/mo,
120 Ft/hour access fee + disk space: 500 Ft/MB/mo over 500 KB

Group E-mail, e.g. 
6000 Ft/mo,
120 Ft/hour access fee + disk space: 100 Ft/MB/day over 500 KB

Full Internet service: Shell and/or SLIP/PPP access (IP address assigned
dynamically), e-mail, and the ususal set: www, gopher, telnet, ftp.
Charged by connection time in blocks as follows:

_____________________________________________________
            |  Monthly   | Included       |+ hourly  |
            |   fee      | free hours     |   fee    |
            |            |                |    Ft    |
- -----------------------------------------------------
1 MatavNet  | 2000 Ft/mo |        1       |   240    |
    HOUR    |            |                |          |
- -----------------------------------------------------
1 MatavNet  | 4000 Ft/mo |  max. 24 and   |          |
    DAY     |            |     close      |          |
            |            | or extra hours |          |
            |            |     for        |  120     |
- -----------------------------------------------------
1 MatavNet  |10000 Ft/mo | max. 168 and   |          |
    WEEK    |            |  close vagy a  |          |
            |            | or extra hours |          |
            |            |                |  75      |
- -----------------------------------------------------
1 MatavNet  |30000 Ft/mo |   max 744      |    -     |
   MONTH    |            |                |          |
_____________________________________________________
+ fee for extra disk space used on Matav's server
  (in case of shell access)
  The first 1.5 MB disk is free, and 500 Ft/MB/mo over 1.5 MB.

We charge what is the best for the customer.
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--

Domain name registration:
    Primary registration:
    5000 Ft/mo
    Secondary registration:
    3000 Ft/mo

WWW presence server
    3000 Ft/MB/mo,
    Discount over 400 MB

WWW editing:
    1500 Ft / page (5KB), without pictures
    Graphics, data and database organization charged on a case by case basi=
s.
    For further information, please mail to: 

Email server
    (Setup and maintenance of automatically answering e-mail address
    up to 5 addresses with 1 MB disk space.)
    4000 Ft/mo
    +500 Ft/MB for extra disk space.

Contact:
Service manager: Janos Gereb
Email: 

MATAV HTI
Marketing Department for Business Communication
1052 Budapest, Varoshaz utca 18. II. em. 29.
1431 Budapest, Pf. 159
Tel: (1) 266-3977 Fax: (1) 266-5846
Email: 

Error reporting:
(1) 117-5415

<notes>
Although not the sole telecommunications company in Hungary (you have
other, smaller, local companies such as BakonyTel, which serves the
Bakony area of Hungary), MATAV nonetheless provides the vast majority of
telecommunication services within Hungary.

Consequently, MATAV has been in the center of a huge political debate
concerning its role as a commercial online provider. A new government
decree expected to take effect soon may restrain Hungarian
telecommunications giant Matav from dominating the Internet market. The
draft decree allows government ministries to enforce a 1993 law
regulating Matav's activities outside of its traditional telephone
services.

CompuServe Hungary along with other local internet providers
complained in January that Matav could price others unfairly out of
the market because it could subsidize its Internet service through
its main telecommunications activities. The group earlier threatened
to file a complaint with the Office of Economic Competition but has
not yet done so.




8. Commercial WWW Servers

<blurb>
The following servers are registered commercial WWW servers in Hungary,
all of them located in Budapest.

   * EUnet Hungary
   * Hungarian Privatization and State Holding Co. (APV)
   * SzKI Ltd.
   * ICON Ltd.
   * IQSOFT Co.
   * iSYS Hungary
   * Services in Hungary Ltd.
   * XCO Systems Ltd.
   * Integrated Business Information Systems Ltd. (IBIS)

Contact: More information concerning these servers as well as other
telnet, ftp, WWW servers, etc. can be found in the Hungarian Homepage at
the following URL:

http://www.fsz.bme.he/hungary/homepage.html




9. Hungarian BBSs

<blurb>
A BBS (Bulletin Board System) is a way of obtaining information and
useful files/programs via modem. In Hungary, BBS operators range from
companies to individuals. Most have systems that operate in both English
and Hungarian. Modem speed varies generally from 2400 to 28800.

One of the main functions of a BBS is the ability to leave messages for
others who access the same BBS. It is possible to send messages to
another BBS via one of many BBS mail networks. Depending on the type of
network, messages can be sent either locally, nationally or
internationally. For more information concerning e-mail via a particular
BBS, contact the Sysop. Unfortunately, not every BBS has this e-mail
option.

<specifics>
Hungarian BBS List

Since the following list would require a column width of 170 characters,
it has been broken up into 3 separate parts: the first contains
connection information (telephone numbers, days and times); the second
is technical information (Sysop, voice phone numbers, type of modem and
speed, and how many lines available); the third has information
concerning mail services available and the date when the information for
the particular BBS was updated. There is also a separation between BBS
numbers in Budapest and those in rural areas.


Part #1:

NB: All days are daily unless otherwise stated


Budapest
- --------

   Name =09=09=09  Telephone=09     Time=09 Days

A & M=09=09=09=09 1-290-6660=09    07:00-18:00 (Mon-Fri)
Adventurers BBS =09=09 1-284-2285=09    22:00-10:00
Amiga Dreamland                  1-138-0446             ?
AT DAT BBS  1. line              1-201-2692         00:00-24:00
AT DAT BBS  2. line=09=09 1-201-4931=09    00:00-24:00
Atis BBS                         1-257-7808         22:00-05:00
AT&T BBS                         1-270-9591         00:00-24:00
AXION BBS=09=09=09 1-219-1753=09    00:00-24:00
Baba Yaga's Hut                  1-111-3424         21:00-12:00 (Weekends:2=
1-9)
BedRock                          1-156-6088         20:00-12:00
Bitland BBS=09=09=09 1-270-2964=09    18:00-09:00 (Weekends:0-24)
BitStar BBS=09=09=09 1-202-5276=09    22:00-06:30  + 9-13
Black Box Budapest BBS           1-212-0760         00:00-24:00
BTA Online BBS                   1-342-0912         00:00-24:00
Budapest II. BBS                 1-266-2292         00:00-24:00
CAMEL BBS=09=09=09 1-189-3789=09    22:00-06:00
Central Cavern BBS=09=09 1-118-8178=09    00:00-24:00
Checkpoints=09=09=09 1-133-3817=09    22:00-08:00
CT BBS=09=09=09=09 1-270-2963=09    18:00-09:00 (Weekends:0-24)
Dekoder BBS                      1-302-3174         22:00-06:00
Digital Reality                  1-291-3675         22:00-06:00
Don's BBS                        1-246-1389         07:30-14:30 (Mon-Fri)
Electric Eye BBS                 1-251-0822         22:00-07:00 (Weekdays:1=
0-14)
Family BBS=09=09=09 1-267-5201=09    00:00-24:00
FLaTLine BBS=09=09=09 1-175-0015=09    22:00-06:00
Fonya BBS=09=09=09 1-261-4414=09    22:00-06:00 (Weekends:22-9)
Full House BBS=09=09=09 1-180-1538=09    22:00-07:00 (Weekends:22-11)
H.A.E. BBS                       1-140-1088         22:00-05:00
HALLY BBS                        1-160-0311         21:00-06:00
HiT SPACE BBS                    1-252-0196         22:00-06:00
HTE BBS                          1-153-3058         09:00-16:00 (Mon-Fri)  =
                            14400 V42b        .........  951127
Home Of Secret                   1-204-5228         22:00-06:00
IDG Online BBS                   1-156-0691         00:00-24:00
iLL CoMMuNiCaTiON BBS            1-176-4173         22:00-23:30
Imagine BBS                      1-292-2892         22:00-05:00
Info Borze Business Center       1-292-0144         00:00-24:00
iNSANITY                         1-165-3943         22:00-07:00
iNSANITY 2                       1-306-8900         22:00-06:00
IPOSZ COMPINFO                   1-269-2580         00:00-24:00
Iridium BBS=09=09=09 1-269-2585=09    00:00-24:00
Kozossegi Adattar=09=09 1-212-0111=09    00:00-24:00
Krammer School BBS=09=09 1-284-4863=09    19:00-06:00
Levi's BBS                       1-420-6770         23:00-05:00
Lucyfair&Marcipain BBS=09=09 1-168-9543=09    22:00-05:00
Madhouse BBS                     1-215-6234         20:00-15:00
Mamro's BBS                      1-188-8423         23:00-07:00
Med-In-Fo                        1-149-8733         00:00-24:00
Microtel BBS=09=09=09 1-268-2181=09    00:00-24:00
MYSTICAL BBS=09=09=09 1-284-7876=09    22:00-06:00
NHRT BBS=09=09=09 1-251-2664=09    18:00-08:00 (Weekends:0-24)
Oplab BBS=09=09=09 1-166-8809=09    21:00-16:00 (Weekends:21-10)
Pangea BBS                       1-189-3643         20:00-05:00 (Weekends:2=
0-12)
PC-I BBS                         1-284-2068         21:00-07:00 (Weekends:1=
8-12)
Pelso BBS                        1-270-6001         22:00-09:00
PictoDrome                       1-120-3507         24:00-06:00
Picur BBS                        1-221-0769         22:00-06:00
Pink Panther                     1-252-8088         08:00-16:00 (Mon-Fri)
Pleasure Dome=09=09=09 1-219-4124=09    18:00-07:00 (Weekends:0-24)
Progi BBS=09=09=09 1-186-7880=09    22:00-06:00
RealBBS                          1-250-3492         22:00-06:00
Roon's BBS                       1-166-0971         06:00-22:00
Royal BBS                        1-290-1412         00:00-24:00
SCiBBS                           1-167-0394         22:00-06:00
Segmentation Fault BBS=09=09 1-165-2792=09    07:00-21:00
Shark BBS=09=09=09 1-133-1602=09    22:00-06:00
Skandar BBS                      1-165-9315         22:00-06:00 (Mon-Fri)
Tele-PC                          1-113-9813         00:00-24:00
Telectronic BBS                  1-214-1952         08:00-17:00 (Mon-Fri)
The Jade BBS                     1-215-6932         22:00-07:00
The LAST Chance BBS=09=09 1-165-0536=09    00:00-24:00
TwT BBS                          1-287-2315         00:00-24:00
Virnet BBS 1.line=09=09 1-115-4402=09    00:00-24:00
Virnet BBS 2.line=09=09 1-175-5896=09    00:00-24:00
Vizlepcso BBS=09=09=09 1-382-7730=09    00:00-24:00
Wildfire BBS=09=09=09 1-156-3770=09    22:30-07:00
Windows Club BBS=09=09 1-258-1435=09    00:00-24:00



Rural Areas
- -----------


Apocalyptic Raids BBS            62-479-359         22:00-07:00
Artur BBS-MOLINet 1.             56-424-033/1697    00:00-24:00 (Weekends:0=
-24)
Artur BBS-MOLINet 2.=09=09 56-424-033/1696    17:00-07:00 (Weekends:0-24)
Artur BBS-MOLINet 3.=09=09 56-424-033/1698    17:00-07:00 (Weekends:0-24)
ASTROBASE BBS=09=09=09 79-324-600=09    00:00-24:00
Atom Service 1.                  94-323-016         22:00-04:00
Auto-Info BBS 1. line            62-421-084         00:00-24:00
Auto-Info BBS 2. line=09=09 62-325-929=09    00:00-24:00
Balaton BBS                      83-318-402         22:00-08:00
BBSzolnok                        56-422-189         00:00-24:00
BitBusters BBS                   62-491-098         23:00-07:00
BRAiN CORE BBS                   72-461-045         22:00-06:00
Bubble BBS=09=09=09 62-346-299=09    16:00-07:00 (Weekends:0-24)
Church of House                  52-438-191         22:00-13:00 (Weekends:2=
2-6)
DANDY BBS                        29-385-652         00:00-24:00
DevilSoft BBS                    42-316-878         22:00-14:00
Dune II BBS                      76-492-351         00:00-24:00
Electric Ladyland=09=09 62-483-370=09    00:00-10:00
Epsylon BBS=09=09=09 72-352-297=09    08:00-12:00 +20-23
Eszterhazi BBS=09=09=09 36-412-661=09    00:00-24:00
GoodLine BBS=09=09=09 96-364-135=09    22:00-05:00
Gyongyosi BBS=09=09=09 37-319-064=09    22:00-05:00 (Weekends:0-24)
Gyongyosi II. BBS=09=09 37-374-157=09    22:00-05:00
HAMLET BBS=09=09=09 46-337-045=09    22:30-06:00 (except Saturday)
HAJDUCOM BBS=09=09=09 52-414-720=09    22:00-07:00
HowEver BBS                      37-378-440         22:00-07:00 (Fri,Sat,Su=
n)
Hydra BBS                        23-358-370         22:00-07:00
IOSTREAM BBS=09=09=09 35-314-862=09    00:00-24:00
ISZV BBS=09=09=09 62-486-189=09    08:00-16:00 + 18:00-06:00
KoalaLand                        23-354-776         21:45-06:00
LifeForce WHQ=09=09=09 52-414-251=09    00:00-14:00 (Weekends:0-8)
Logistic Info Service            79-321-840         00:00-24:00
Monor City BBS                   29-414-782         00:00-24:00
MTC BBS                          46-???-???         00:00-24:00
MEGAPEX BBS=09=09=09 37-311-570=09    17:30-08:00 (Sunday:0-24)
NaPalM CliNiC=09=09=09 36-429-755=09    22:00-05:00
P.C.Software BBS=09=09 94-311-331=09    22:00-05:00
RaveLand=09=09=09 46-339-873=09    00:00-24:00
Rozmar BBS=09=09=09 23-381-204=09    20:00-10:00
Savaria BBS=09=09=09 94-327-878=09    08:00-16:00 (Mon-Fri)
Szeged BBS 1.                    62-486-189         00:00-24:00
Szeged BBS 2.                    62-475-796         00:00-24:00
Szeged BBS 3.                    62-475-796         00:00-24:00
Szeged BBS 4.                    62-487-465         00:00-24:00
TelComTec   1. line              46-324-222         00:00-24:00
TelComTec   2. line=09=09 46-324-077=09    00:00-24:00
The Final Frontier BBS=09=09 52-362-763=09    21:00-12:00
The Next Generation BBS =09 96-414-576=09    22:00-06-00
TITASZ EPL  1. line=09=09 56-379-616=09    00:00-24:00
TITASZ EPL  2. line=09=09 56-420-411/7382    00:00-24:00
TITASZ EPL  3. line=09=09 56-420-411/7233    00:00-24:00
TPBBS Pecs                       72-333-437         06:00-22:00
Vertigo OS/2 BBS                 46-344-956         22:00-12:00
Veszprem BBS                     88-326-203         21:00-06:00
World Contact BBS 1. line        76-492-103         00:00-24:00
World Contact BBS 2. line=09 76-492-105=09    00:00-24:00
3 Dome                           22-340-760         22:30-05:30


Part #2:

Budapest
- --------

Name=09=09       Sysop=09=09    Voice Phone       Modem (lines)

A & M=09=09       Marki Attila=09    (1) 261-2199/1308 14400 V42b
Adventurers BBS        Ra Wen=09=09=09=09      19200 ZyXEL
Amiga Dreamland        Tom a Hawk
AT DAT BBS  1. line    Jacinth                                14400 V42b
AT DAT BBS  2. line    Jacinth=09=09=09=09      14400 V42b
Atis BBS               Atis        needs VT100/PPP emulation  28800 V34 V.F=
C
AT&T BBS               Andrew Hor=A0nyi                         28800 V34 V=
..FC
AXION BBS=09       Molnar & Marton=09=09=09      14000
Baba Yaga's Hut        Iolo                                   19200 ZyXEL
BedRock =09       Slapic=09=09=09=09      28800 V34 V.FC
Bitland BBS=09       Cpt. Nemo=09=09=09      28800 V.FC. MNP10
BitStar BBS=09       Fabian Balazs=09=09=09      14400
Black Box Budapest BBS Visnitz Tamas, Teglasi G.=09      28800 V34
BTA Online BBS         Path Geza                              28800
Budapest II. BBS       Jeszenszky Sandor    (1)186-8858       2400-28800 (1=
0)
CAMEL BBS=09       Dundy=09=09=09=09      28800 V42bis V32
Central Cavern BBS     Szinte Bal=A0zs=09=09=09      28800 V34 V.FC
Checkpoints=09       Fogarasi Zoltan=09=09=09      14400 V42bis
CT BBS=09=09       Lencses Gabor=09    (1)270-2822/1448  28800 V.FC
Dekoder BBS            Steve                                  14400 V42b
Dekoder II BBS         Hagyma                                 14400 V42b
Digital Reality        Zsoltie                                14400 V42b
Don's BBS              Don Georgio                            14400 V42b
Electric Eye BBS       Nagy Csaba                             28800 V34 V.F=
C
Family BBS=09=09=09=09=09=09      14400 V42b
FLaTLine BBS=09       DinDi=09=09=09=09      28800 V.FC
Fonya BBS=09       Fonya=09=09=09=09      14400 V42b
Full House BBS=09       Horanyi Endre=09=09=09      28800 V42bis
H.A.E. BBS             Senna                                  14400 V42b
HALLY BBS              Sebestyen Gabor                        28800 V42b
HiT SPACE BBS          Davidovics Adam                        28800
HTE BBS                                                       14400 V42b
Home Of Secret         ATi                                    14400 V42b
IDG Online BBS         Bognar Akos                            21600 HST
iLL CoMMuNiCaTiON BBS  HuRRiCaNe=09=09=09      14400 V42b
Imagine BBS            Guy Mariano                            14400 V42b
Info Borze Business Center                  (1)290-3464       16800 ZyXEL
iNSANITY               X-Ray                                  28800 V34 V.F=
C
iNSANITY 2             Kunci                                  14400 V42b
IPOSZ COMPINFO         Rossu Laszlo         (1)180-8202       2400 MNP5
Iridium BBS=09       Rossu Laszlo=09    (1)180-8202       14400
Kozossegi Adattar      Huszerl J=A2zsef=09    (1)201-5728       14400 MNP5
Krammer School BBS     Gint=09=09=09=09      14400 V42b
Levi's BBS             Szab=A2 Levente                          14400 V42b
Lucyfair&Marcipain BBS Lucyfair =09=09=09      14400 V42b
Madhouse BBS=09       Munchausen=09=09=09      14400 V42b
Mamro's BBS            Mamrovits Laszlo                       14400 V42bis
Med-In-Fo              Dr. Netuddki                           19200 ZyXEL
Microtel BBS=09       Szoszi=09=09    (1)268-2481       14400 V42bis (5)
MYSTICAL BBS=09       Shadow (DECOR)=09=09=09      14400 V42b
NHRT BBS=09       Kalpagos-Szabo Tamas=09=09      19200 ZyXEL
Oplab BBS=09       Osgyany Pal=09=09=09      14400 V42bis
Pangea BBS=09       Gawain=09=09    (1)169-4647       14400 V42b
PC-I BBS               Mr. Gabo                               14400 V42b
Pelso BBS              Gordos Arpad                           28800 V42bis
PictoDrome             Jacinth                                14400 V42bis
Picur BBS              Misu                                   14400 V42b
Pink Panther           Red Fox                                14400
Pleasure Dome=09       Deville=09=09=09=09      28800 V42bis
Progi BBS=09       McSaba=09=09=09=09      14400 V42bis
RealBBS                Koszegi Peter                          14400 V42b
Roon's BBS             Path Daniel                             2400
Royal BBS              Fenyvessy Bela       (20)343-343       28800 V42bis
SCiBBS=09=09       Varga Istvan (the Rival) =09      14400 V42b
Segmentation Fault BBS Korossy Balazs=09=09=09      14400 V42bis
Shark BBS=09       Bozoky Zolt=A0n=09=09=09      14400 V42b
Skandar BBS            Benya                                  14400 V42b
Tele-PC                                                       14400 V42b
Telectronic BBS        Szs-soft =09=09=09      19200 ZyXEL
The Jade BBS=09       Bohanek Oliver=09=09=09      16800 USR
The LAST Chance BBS    Csaba Xen=09=09=09      19200 ZyXEL
The UlTiMaTe BBS       AteE=09=09=09=09      28800 V.FC
TwT BBS                SePY                                   14400 V42b
Virnet BBS 1.line      Kis Janos=09    (1)116-8896       14400 V42b
Virnet BBS 2.line      Kis Janos=09    (1)116-8896       2400
Vizlepcso BBS=09       Sacyka=09=09=09=09      19200 ZyXEL
Wildfire BBS=09       Dino=09=09=09=09      14400 V42bis
Windows Club BBS       Hodosi Gabor=09=09=09      14400 USR



Rural Areas
- -----------
Apocalyptic Raids BBS  Kovacs Geza                            14400 V42b
Artur BBS-MOLINet 1.   Egyed Gyorgy - Artur  (56)424-033      14400 V42bis
Artur BBS-MOLINet 2.   Egyed Gyorgy - Artur  (56)424-033      14400 V42bis
Artur BBS-MOLINet 3.   Egyed Gyorgy - Artur  (56)424-033      14400 V42bis
ASTROBASE BBS          Jager Zoltan, Tepliczky Istvan         14400 V42bis
Atom Service 1.        AtomAti                                14400 V42b
Auto-Info BBS 1.                            (62)317-349       14400 V42bis
Auto-Info BBS 2.=09=09=09    (62)317-349       28800 V.FC
Balaton BBS            Jancsekity Ferenc                      28800 V34
BBSzolnok              Petro Erno           (56)420-444/54    28800 V32 V.F=
C
BitBusters BBS                                                14400 V42b
BRAiN CORE BBS         Craft                                  28800 V34 V.F=
C
Bubble BBS             Hevesi Zoltan        (62)346-299        9600 V42bis
Church of House        MaDBoY and Raveman                     28800 V34 V.F=
C
DANDY BBS              Sarkozi Akos         (29)385-664       14400 V42bis
DevilSoft BBS          Mr. D.S.                               14400 V42b
Dune II BBS            Bat                                    28800 V34 V.F=
C
Electric Ladyland      G=82za=09=09=09=09      14400 V42b
Epsylon BBS=09       Nemeth Gabor=09=09=09      2400
Eszterhazi BBS=09       Koczka Ferenc=09    (36)410-466/49    2400
GoodLine BBS=09       PSoftD=09=09=09=09      14400 V42b
Gyongyosi BBS=09       Geczi Zoltan=09=09=09      14000
Gyongyosi II. BBS      Kaulics Kornel=09    (37)374-014/205   2400
HAMLET BBS=09       Vivien=09=09=09=09      14400
HAJDUCOM BBS=09       Kulcs=A0r =8Fd=A0m=09=09=09      19200 ZyXEL
HowEver BBS            KeViN                                  14400 MNP5
Hydra BBS              Mondhur                                28800 V34
IOSTREAM BBS=09       Szabo Zoltan=09    (35)311-419       14400 V42bis
ISZV BBS=09=09=09=09=09=09      14400
KoalaLand              St Stofi / KHQ                         28800 V34
LifeForce WHQ=09       Crown & Grin=09=09=09      28800 ZyXEL
Logistic Info Service  Sziranyi Janos       (79)322-027       14400 V42b
M T C BBS              John Vencel          (46)310-507       14400 V42bis
MEGAPEX BBS=09       Toth Janos=09    (37)317-393       28800
Monor City BBS         Pasztor Erno
NaPalM CliNiC          Voros Zolt=A0n                           14400 V42b
P.C.Software BBS       Poczik Csaba=09    (30)466-519       28800 V42bis
RaveLand=09       Rave Ace =09=09=09      28800 V34 V.FC
Rozmar BBS=09       Banhegyi Balazs=09    (20)414-606       28800 V42bis/HS=
T
Savaria BBS            Buki Laszlo                            14400
Szeged BBS 1.          Tallosy Benjamin                       28800
Szeged BBS 2.          Tallosy Benjamin                       28800
Szeged BBS 3.          Tallosy Benjamin                         ?
Szeged BBS 4.          Tallosy Benjamin                         ?
TelComTec   1. line    Antal Ervin         (10 lines)         9600 V42b
TelComTec   2. line    Antal Ervin=09   (2 lines=09      9600 MNP5
The Final Frontier BBS Phoenix=09=09=09=09      28800 V34 V.FC
The Next Generation    (TR) of TNG=09=09=09      28800 V34 V.FC
TITASZ EPL  1. line    Turcsanyi Janos=09=09=09      19200 ZyXEL
TITASZ EPL  2. line    Turcsanyi Janos=09=09=09      19200 ZyXEL
TITASZ EPL  3. line    Turcsanyi Janos=09  (4 lines)=09      2400
TPBBS P=E9cs             Farkas Otto          (72)313-711/139   2400 V42b
Vertigo OS/2 BBS       Pal Ferenc (Frankie) (46)321-633/26    19200 ZyXEL
Veszprem BBS           Wizard & Max                           16800 ZyXEL
World Contact BBS 1. line                                     2400 MNP5
World Contact BBS 2. line=09=09=09=09      2400 MNP5
3 Dome                 Santa Claus                            14400 V42b



Part #3:

Legend for the BBS Mail Networks

   1  =3D  FidoNet
   2  =3D  HappyNet
   3  =3D  FreeNet
   4  =3D  VirNet
   5  =3D  OS2Net
   6  =3D  ZyxelNet
   7  =3D  GamesNet
   8  =3D  BreNet
   9  =3D  RetteNet



Budapest
- --------

  Name                      Mail network  Test date
=09=09=09=09123456789

A & M                           .........  950831
Adventurers BBS                 .........  960331
Amiga Dreamland                            960331
AT DAT BBS  1. line             XX..X.X..  960331
AT DAT BBS  2. line             XX..X.X..  960130
Atis BBS                        .........  960331
AT&T BBS                        .........  960331
AXION BBS                       .........  960331
Baba Yaga's Hut                 XX.X.XX..  960331
BedRock                         XX..X....  960331
Bitland BBS                     XX.......  960331
BitStar BBS                     XX.......  ??????
Black Box Budapest BBS          .........  960331
Budapest II. BBS                X........  960331
CAMEL BBS                       X.XX.....  960331
Central Cavern BBS              X........  960331
Checkpoints                     X.X......  960331
CT BBS                          .X.X.XX..  960331
Dekoder BBS                     .........  960331
Dekoder II BBS                  .........  960331
Digital Reality                 .........  960331
Don's BBS                       .........  960320
Electric Eye BBS                XX.......  960331
Family BBS                      .........  960331
FLaTLine BBS                    .........  960331
Fonya BBS                       .........  960331
Full House BBS                  .........  960331
H.A.E. BBS                      .........  960331
HALLY BBS                       .........  960130
HiT SPACE BBS                   .........  960331
HTE BBS                         .........  951127
Home Of Secret                  .........  960331
IDG Online BBS                  .........  960331
iLL CoMMuNiCaTiON BBS           .........  960110
Imagine BBS                     .........  960130
Info Borze Business Center      .........  960331
iNSANITY                        .........  960130
iNSANITY 2                      .........  960331
IRIDIUM-IPOSZ BBS 1.            .........  960331
IRIDIUM-IPOSZ BBS 2.            .........  960229
Kozossegi Adattar               .........  960331
Krammer School BBS              .........  960331
Levi's BBS                      .........  960331
LITTLE BBS                      .........  960331
Lucyfair&Marcipain BBS          .........  960331
Madhouse BBS                    X........  960331
Mamro's BBS                     .........  ??????
Med-In-Fo                       .........  960331
Media T-Error BBS               .........  960229
Microtel BBS                    .X.......  960331
Mixim BBS 1.                    .........  960331
Mixim BBS 2.                    .........  960331
M=9DSTiC=92L BBS                    XXXXXXXXX  960331
NHRT BBS                        X........  960331
Oplab BBS                       X..X.....  960331
Pangea BBS                      .........  960130
PC/DC                           .........  960331
PC-I BBS                        .........  960229
Pelso BBS                       .........  960130
PictoDrome                      XXX.X.X..  960331
Picur BBS                       .........  960331
Pink Panther                    .........  ??????
Pleasure Dome                   XXXX...X.  960331
PowerCut Zone BBS               .........  960331
Progi BBz                       .........  960331
Real BBS                        .........  960331
Roon's BBS                      .........  960217
Royal BBS                       XXXXX.X.X  960331
SCiBBS                          .........  960331
Segmentation Fault BBS          .........  960130
Shark BBS                       .........  960331
Skandar BBS                     .........  960229
Solaria BBS                     .........  960331
Tele-PC                         .........  960331
Telectronic BBS                 ..X......  960130
The Jade BBS                    XXXXX.X..  960331
The LAST Chance BBS             XX.......  960401
TwT BBS                         .........  960130
Virnet BBS 1. line              X..X.....  960331
Virnet BBS 2. line              X..X.....  960331
Vizlepcso BBS                   XX.......  960331
Wildfire BBS                    X.....X..  960331
Windows Club BBS                X.X....X.  960331




Rural Areas
- -----------

  Name                       Mail network  Test date
                                123456789

Apocalyptic Raids BBS           X........  960331
Artur BBS-MOLINet 1.            X........  950713
Artur BBS-MOLINet 2.            .........
Artur BBS-MOLINet 3.            .........
ASTROBASE BBS                   .........  960331
Atom Service 1.                 .........  960121
Auto-Info BBS 1. line           .........  960331
Auto-Info BBS 2. line           .........  960331
Auto-Info BBS 3. line           .........  960229
Balaton BBS                     X........  960331
BBS Csaba
BBSzolnok                       X..X.....  960331
BitBusters BBS                  X.......X  960331
BRAiN CORE BBS                  X.X.....X  960229
Bubble BBS                      X..X.....  960229
Church of House                 X.......X  960331
DANDY BBS                       .........  960331
DevilSoft BBS                   .........  960229
Dune ][ BBS                     .........  960229
Electric Ladyland               X........  951015
Epsylon BBS                     .........
Eszterh=E1zi BBS                  .........  NemJel
Free Energy BBS                 .........  960229
GoodLine BBS                    X.X.....X  960229
Gyongyosi BBS                   X........  960229
HAMLET BBS                      X........  960229
HAJDUCOM BBS                    .........  960331
HowEver BBS                     .........  960331
Hydra BBS                       XXXXX.X.X  960229
IOSTREAM BBS                    X...X....  960331
KoalaLand                       X........  960302
LifeForce WHQ                   XX.XXX...  960229
Logistic Info Service           .........  951202
MTC BBS                         X.......X
MEGAPEX BBS                     .........  960331
Monor City BBS                  .........  960331
NaPalM CliNiC                   X........  960331
P.C.Software BBS                X........  960331
RaveLand                        .........  960229
Rozm=E1r BBS                      XXXX.X...  960222
Savaria BBS                     X........  950119
Southern Point BBS              .........  960229
Szeged BBS 1.                   .........  960229
Szeged BBS 2.                   .........  960229
Szeged BBS 3.                   .........
Szeged BBS 4.                   .........
TelComTec   1. line             .........  960331
TelComTec   2. line             .........  960331
The DaMNeD HouSe BBS
The Final Frontier BBS          X........  960229
The Next Generation BBS         ..X.....X  960331
TITASZ EPL  1. line             .........  950831
TITASZ EPL  2. line             .........
TITASZ EPL  3. line             .........
TPBBS Pecs                      X..X.....  960131
Vertigo OS/2 BBS                X...X....  960331
Veszprem BBS                    .........  960331
World Contact BBS 1.            .........  960331
World Contact BBS 2.            .........  960331
3 Dome                          .........  960331


     =20
     =20


The following is a brief summary of the BBS mail networks and those who
belong to them:



BRENET
~~~~~~
Alex's X BBS         137:3601/5
PRO BBS =09     137:3601/11
Windows Club BBS     137:3601/7271




FIDONET
~~~~~~~
Fidonet is one of the world's largest BBS mail networks. There are
separate international and Hungarian parts: the international part is in
English and the Hungarian part is in Hungarian; the following are only
the Hungarian members. Within this network private and commercial (i.e.
business) e-mail is not allowed.


Alex's X BBS         2:371/40
Amiga Dreamland      2:371/6
AT DAT BBS=09     2:371/43
Baba Yaga's Hut      2:371/3
BedRock =09     2:371/20
BEIG BBS=09     2:371/34
Bitland BBS=09     2:371/11
BitStar BBS=09     2:371/7
Budapest II. BBS     2:371/1
CAMEL BBS=09     2:371/33
Central Cavern BBS   2:371/39
Checkpoints=09     2:371/32
Electric Eye BBS     2:371/38
Hydra BBS            2:371/47
Madhouse BBS         2:371/48
Mike's House BBS     2:371/37.2
MYSTiCAL BBS=09     2:371/42
NHRT BBS=09     2:371/35
Oplab BBS=09     2:371/15  2:371/0 Budapest Net coordinator
Pesti BBS=09     2:371/17
PictoDrome=09     2:371/8
Pleasure Dome=09     2:371/27
PRO BBS              2:371/46
Royal BBS            2:371/36
The Jade BBS=09     2:371/44
The LAST Chance BBS  2:371/50
Ultravox BBS=09     2:371/28
Virnet BBS=09     2:371/9
Virnet BBS=09     2:371/22
Vizlepcso BBS=09     2:371/4
Wildfire BBS=09     2:371/41
Windows Club BBS     2:371/31

Apocaliptyc Raids    2:370/38
Balaton BBS          2:372/19
BBSopron             2:372/12
BBSzolnok=09     2:370/1   2:37/0  Hungarian region coordinator
=09=09=09       2:370/0=09Tisza Net coordinator
BRAiN CORE BBS=09     2:372/15
Bubble BBS=09     2:370/16
Electric Ladyland    2:370/36
GoodLine BBS=09     2:372/17
Gyongyosi BBS=09     2:370/26
HAMLET BBS=09     2:370/20
Human Target=09     2:370/34
IOSTREAM BBS=09     2:370/28
KoalaLand            2:371/47.7
Let me think BBS     2:370/17
LifeForce WHQ=09     2:370/15
Mordor Home BBS      2:372/13
MTC BBS =09     2:370/13
NaPalM CliNiC=09     2:370/35
Pocsai's Board       2:370/6
PTBBS Pecs           2:372/4
P.C.Software BBS     2:372/11
RGB's Home BBS       2:370/22
Rozmar BBS=09     2:371/29
Savaria BBS=09     2:372/5
Study & Games BBS    2:370/26.1
The Final Frontier   2:370/33
Vertigo OS/2 BBS     2:370/25




FREENET
~~~~~~~
FreeNet is a Hungarian mail network that can be used under certain terms
and conditions.


Alex's X BBS         136:3601/5
Checkpoints=09     136:3601/4
Hydra BBS            136:3601/18
PictoDrome           136:3601/7
Pleasure Dome        136:3601/27
PRO BBS =09     136:3601/11
Royal BBS            136:3646/8
Telectronic BBS      136:3601/9
Windows Club BBS     136:3601/2

Rozmar BBS=09     136:3601/66
BRAiN CORE BBS=09     136:3672/2
GoodLine BBS=09     136:3696/1
TNG BBS =09     136:3696/1.4




GAMESNET
~~~~~~~~
An English language mail network about games.


AT DAT BBS           100:7010/43
Baba Yaga's Hut      100:7010/3
CT BBS               100:7010/42
Hydra BBS            100:7010/5
PictoDrome           100:7010/8
Royal BBS            100:7010/36
Wildfire BBS         100:7010/41

Let me think BBS     100:7010/1 100:7010/0 100:7000/0




HAPPYNET
~~~~~~~~
HappyNet is a Hungarian network in both English and Hungarian. In this
network you are free to write anything, with the exception of one thing:
don't write anything that will put someone in a bad mood.


Amiga Dreamland      149:361/6
AT DAT BBS           149:361/201
Baba Yaga's Hut      149:361/3
BedRock =09     149:361/23
BEIG BBS=09     149:361/13
Bitland BBS=09     149:361/93
BitStar BBS=09     149:361/7
CenTerC BBS=09     149:361/21
CT BBS=09=09     149:361/42
DTB BBS =09     149:361/18
Electric Eye BBS     149:361/32
Hydra BBS            149:361/25
Microtel BBS         149:361/19
Mike's House BBS     149:361/37.2
Pesti BBS=09     149:361/20
PictoDrome=09     149:361/1
Pleasure Dome=09     149:361/27
Royal BBS            149:361/36
The LAST Chance BBS  149:361/50
Vizlepcso BBS=09     149:361/4

Johnny's Home BBS    149:361/67
Let me think BBS     149:361/17
LifeForce WHQ=09     149:361/666
RGB's Home BBS       149:361/22
Rozmar BBS=09     149:361/66




OS2NET
~~~~~~
OS2Net is a network concerned with OS/2, in where members exchange
messages and files about OS/2. The language used is English.

Amiga Dreamland      81:436/7
AT DAT BBS           81:436/12
Hydra BBS            81:436/16
PictoDrome           81:436/6
Royal BBS            81:436/36

LifeForce WHQ=09     81:436/3
Vertigo OS/2 BBS     81:436/1  81:436/0




RETTENET
~~~~~~~~
A Hungarian language network.


BRAiN CORE           72:3672/2, 72
Twilight S. BBS      72:3672/1
Vision BBS           72:3672/4
Togo WorkStation     72:3601/2
Hydra BBS            72:3601/4
BedRock              72:3601/5
Bitland BBS          72:3601/6
Mystical BBS         72:3601/8
THS BBS              72:3646/1
MTC Mail-Only        72:3646/2
QJU's Privte Board   72:3646/3
Royal BBS            72:3646/36
Church of House      72:3652/1
BitBusters BBS       72:3662/1
GoodLine BBS         72:3696/1
The Next Gen. BBS    72:3696/2
SIVIC's World BBS    72:3696/1.1




SZUNET
~~~~~~
A Hungarian language network.
  =20
Home of Secret       36:1/1
ProgiBBz             36:1/2
Decoder'z System     36:1/3
Picur BBS            36:1/4
PC-I BBS             36:1/5
H.A.E. BBS           36:1/6





VIRNET
~~~~~~
Virnet is an international mail network. The central theme of the
network is computer viruses and the language used is English. Because of
the subject matter, users on the network are subject to strict
conditions.


Baba Yaga's Hut      9:361/109
CT BBS=09=09     9:361/118
Hydra BBS            9:361/140
Oplab BBS            9:361/110
Pleasure Dome=09     9:361/125
Royal BBS            9:361/139
Virnet BBS           9:361/102

BBSzolnok            9:361/101  9:361/0  Hungarian regional coordinator
Bubble BBS=09     9:361/107
LifeForce WHQ=09     9:361/103
Rozmar BBS=09     9:361/121




ZYXELNET
~~~~~~~~
ZyxelNet is an international mail network of Zyxel modem users. The
language used is English.


Baba Yaga's Hut      16:1600/3
CT BBS=09=09     16:1600/42

LifeForce WHQ=09     16:1600/665
Rozmar BBS=09     16:1600/66


<notes>



- -------------------------------------------------------------------

This FAQ file is maintained by John Horvath and is revised quarterly;
feedback, comments, and suggestions are most welcome and should be
addressed to .


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Archive-name: hungarian/pointer
Soc-culture-magyar-archive-name: pointer
Bit-listserv-hungary-archive-name: pointer
Version: 0.90 (beta)
Posting-Frequency: monthly
Last-modified: 1995/11/21
URL: http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/hungarian-faq-pointer

 This document summarizes network-related resources of Hungarian
interest, which are accessible via email. Some of the most readily
available sources of information can be found in the archives of
periodical information postings to Usenet; these documents are commonly
known as FAQs (from Frequently Asked/Answered Questions). Knowing the
name of the file you can retrieve it by sending email to
 with the command "send
usenet/news.answers/<ARCHIVE-NAME>" in the message (without the quotes,
and with substituting the actual name for <ARCHIVE-NAME> in the pattern
shown above) - for example, to get the document described below, use

 send usenet/news.answers/hungarian-faq

 To learn more about the RTFM server just send the command "help" to it
- it will provide step-by-step intstructions on how to use the
archives, on retrieving indexes and so on.

 "Hungarian electronic resources FAQ" is a comprehensive collection
dealing with email, FTP, WWW and other Internet tools; its archive name
is 'hungarian-faq' (and the mail-server command to get it is shown in
the example above).
 If you only have direct access to email then, in order to use the
other tools, you'll need the methods described in "Accessing The
Internet By E-Mail" (Archive-name:
internet-services/access-via-email).
 To get a general introduction to Usenet (with some guides to Internet
as well - and explanation of how they are different, too) see "Welcome
to news.newusers.questions!" (Archive-name: news-newusers-intro).
 For a guide to finding someone's e-mail addresses, see the "FAQ: How
to find people's E-mail addresses" (Archive-name: finding-addresses).
Do notice that it's usually inappropriate to send such blanket requests
to mailing lists; the search tools available give much better chance to
locate addresses sought than posted queries in any case!
 An overview of commercial on-line services in Hungary is available by 
John Horvath > 
(Archive-name: hungarian/comm-providers).

 The hungarian-faq describes several email lists related to Hungary;
only a brief summary is shown here. Please keep in mind that
subscription requests (and other administrative communications) should
be directed to the server address, NOT to the lists themselves.

Server: 
 List:  (the HUNGARY LISTSERV list)

Server: 
 List: HOL (Hungary Online)

Server: 
 List: hungary-report

Server: 
 Lists: OMRI-L (Open Media Research Institute Daily Digest)
        MIDEUR-L (Middle European discussion list)

Server: 
 List: cet-online (Central Europe Today On-Line; email )

Server: 
 List: CERRO-L (Central European Regional Research Organization)

Server: email to  (Hollosi Information Exchange)
 Lists: HIX is a collection of several separate lists, including
  - MOZAIK, a collection of news items in English
  - various discussion forums in Hungarian language
  - SCM and HUNGROUPS, which are email-accessible archives of the Usenet
    newsgroup soc.culture.magyar and the hun.* national hierarchy,
    respectively; to get a directory listing of these archives (as well
    as that of other HIX lists), send email to  with
    "arch" in the 'Subject:' line. Note that the SENDDOC utility takes
    its parameter from the 'Subject:' of the message (unlike many other
    servers, like the ones described previously, which use the body)!

 Note that this document is available on the
 <http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/>; homepage for the "Hungarian
electronic resources FAQ" at the HIX WWW-server.
 The latter also provides access for the full FAQ via 
 'finger ', and for this brief pointer you are
reading via 'finger ' (notice that you
will likely need to redirect the output to a pager or a file in order
to read it). The Usenet archive name for this document is
 hungarian/pointer .

--
 Zoli , keeper of <http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/>;
 <'finger '> 
 NOTE: spamsters and bulk emailers see 'X-Policy*:' in the 
header for the charges to be imposed for net abuse!

Panon Jozsi irta:

>Gabor, tolem elviheted az osszes latin not!  Csak tereld a lengyeleket
>errefele. ;-) 

>Joe Pannon

Jo, jo, de akkor mi lesz a szoke sved bombazokkal? Parlagon maradnak?   ;-)
GK

On 22 Feb 1997 00:36:47 GMT, MDtoCEO > wrote:
>
>Ugyanugy sirok a Magyar es Amerikai himnusz enekleseben.  Gondolom megis
>Amerikai vagyok, utlevelem szerint.  De nem ugy erzem.

Hat ez nagyon szep, Kristof!  Erre Neked is csak azt tudom irni,
mi inditott a magyar tanulasara?  Gondolom nem lenne erdektelen ha ezt 
megirnad.

>Hogy mondjak a Magyarok, "ahany nyelv, annyi ember"?

Ahany ember, annyi szoka's.

Joe Pannon
----------
REMINDER: Please correct my e-mail address in any personal reply by
removing the "antiSPAM." part from it.  I have altered the address
in the hope of defeating address grabbing SPAM software.  Thanks, JP

In article >,
   wrote:
>
> On Wed, 26 Feb 1997 18:11:11 -0500, Peter
> > wrote:
>
> >Cristian Chelariu wrote:
> >>
> >> Your country brought death, distruction, loss of individual freedom and
> >> dignity and economic stagnation for all the nations in Eastern Europe. If
> >> I would be in your place, I would keep my mouth shut and lower my head in
> >> shame.
> >
> >yeah right. And where were you guys all the time? It's sure easy
> >to blame everything on Russians. Wasn't Chaushesku Romanian?
>
> His tyranical regiem was impossed on Romania against the will of the
> Romanian people by the Soviet army of occupation.
>
> >Wasn't Kadar Hungarian?
>
> His tyranical regiem was impossed on Hungary against the will of the
> Hungarian people by the Soviet army of occupation.
>
> > Honeker - German?
>
> His tyranical regiem was impossed on East Germany against the will of
> the East Germans by the Soviet army of occupation.
>
> >Yaruzel'ski - Polish?
>
> His tyranical regiem was impossed on Poland against the will of the
> Polish people by the Soviet army of occupation.
>
> >And don't tell me their regimes wouldn't survive without Soviet help.
>
> The East Germans and the Hungarians overthrew their Soviet impossed
> dictatorships within the first decade.  The Soviets came right back
> and reimpossed them.  And, in 1989, when it became clear that the
> Soviets wouldn't help these communist regimes survive every single one
> immediately collapsed.  And, with the exception of Ceaucescu, none of
> the communist regiems could even stomach bloodshed to remain in power.
>
> >Perhaps you heard that Austria and Norway were liberated from Nazis
> >by Soviet troops.
>
> Soviet troops only occupied eastern Austria, and they withdrew as part
> of a treaty that made Austria a neutral state.  Soviet troops did not
> liberate Norway.
>
> > They just had the guts to say no to commies.
> >And you didn't until 80s.
>
> The Soviet occupation forces faced extensive guerrila wars throughout
> the captive states well into the 1950's and still had to face
> continued, though much less organized armed resistance into the
> 1960's.  They just were willing to take the casualties to impose an
> evil system on their western neighbors. :-(
>
> Alexander
>
> I have edited my return address in order to avoid the
> gross excess in junk e-mail infesting the net.
> To e-mail me, just remove the word spamfree
> from my address.

ALEXANDER,

HAVE YOU NOTICED THAT RUSSIANS ARE *IMMUNE* TO LOGIC?

COMMUNIST, TSARIST, RUSSIAN "FEDERATION", "FIRST AMONG EQUALS" OF
"THE 'COMMONWEALTH' OF 'INDEPENDENT' STATES", WHATEVER.....

THEY ARE GENETICALLY *STUPID*!

THEY *LIKE* HAVING THEIR HEADS UP THEIR ASSES!

SO WARM.... MOIST.... AND DARK THERE.... "MASTERS OF THE UNIVERSE!"
ALONE IN THEIR ISOLATED SPLENDOR AND GREATNESS...

THEY KNOW EVERYTHING, EXCEPT THEIR OWN HISTORY AND CULTURE...

THEY ARE SOVIET-*SOVOK* SAVAGES.... JUST SPIT ON THEM!
SHIT ON THEM!

THEY ALWAYS WILL OPEN UP THEIR STUPID *SOVOK* MOUTHS FOR MORE...

THEY ALWAYS THINK THAT THEY ARE "..SO INTELLIGENT AND CLEVER,"

THAT THEY ARE NOT HOMO SAPIEN, BUT RATHER, "A NEW SPECIES"!

THEY ARE INDEED NOT HUMAN, BUT AS THEY SAY: "HOMO SOVIETICUS".

-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
      http://www.dejanews.com/     Search, Read, Post to Usenet

 (Mr. Kudla) wrote:
>
<<original post deleted>>

>I know that people with the mentality of a slave will call it bad deal,
> when you trying to marry a wealthy and mighty, and you have a shot at it.
>
>We've been  married to the poor and destitute for about 45 years 
>and it did not work! HELLO!
>

That is what I call the slave mentality. People thinking this way
always depend on somebody else, a "wealthy uncle", so to speak.
They lack self-assurance, self-respect and a lack of freedom
doesn't come as a surprise after all, don't you think so? 

<<original post deleted>>
That's why we trying to stick with the stronger one!
>
Let me make myself clear.
The stronger one will never give up _his_ vital interests
in favor of you, the weaker. See my comment above.

<<
>> Grow up, guys -- look around! The human world is
>>pivoting around the axis called balance of power. All this talk of
>>supporting democracy is only a well-crafted excuse for Western
>>powers to increase their influence anywhere where it can be done witho
>>ut inflicting harm upon themselves...
>>

>
>Can you blame them for that. Only Russians are trying to do taht by
>inflicting serious damages to themselves (remember Afghanistan, Chechnya?)
>
>

I simply don't like any form of hypocrisy, in particular this double talk
of propagating democracy... Afganistan was a mistake but was a result of
aggressive American diplomacy in that region, exactly the same thing
as Vietnam and Korea were for America. Chechnya is a manifestation of
the criminal character of Eltsin's regime (incidentally so adored
by the Western governments). 

<<
>> They come (troops, companies),
>>bring along stability... Do you sincerely believe that all this happen
>>s at no cost to the "saved"?
>>
>It is much better, than:
>they come (troops, no companies), bring death, destruction...

And that comes only from Russians?  

Vietnam, Somalia, Algeria, Iraq, Bosnia. 
Have you had enough examples? Maybe you have forgotten
what the Nazi did to you?

<<
>> "We have the right to decide our own destiny" --
>>
>Please DO. But LEAVE EVERYBODY ELSE ALONE .
> Make Russia for Russians,and be happy in your own heaven.
> We wish you all the best.  You think you can actually do that?
>

By "we" I meant you. That can easily be understood in the context of the
following words:
<<
>>that sounds a joke when you deal with Americans. They don't like loser
>>s -maybe some of you haven't figured it out yet but you look like the ones
>>to them.
>>

>As long as they are willing to stick with the looser, that's O.K.
>

Now talk about the slave mentality...

<<
>> Don't expect it from you new masters.  
>>
>Are you threatening      us?
>

There was a typo - "you" should be "your". Why for God's sake would
I threaten you? I am not a nationalist like Zhrinovsky, rest assured
of that. Simply stated the fact. 

>Mr. Kudla
>-


Now the conclusion. The NATO expansion in the form it is about to 
take is another example of the impatience of the Western business
and military circles to amass more muscle.
An overwhelming majority of Russian citizens will inevitably perceive
it only as an unfriendly move. The efforts of Western diplomacy
to prove otherwise are simply doomed to failure. 10 years ago
the same leaders were reassuring then the Soviet leaders that
they would never come to think of such an action. Since then
Russia has been going down the drain (with Western help) and
when it has reached the bottom in all spheres (economy,
science, military) the good-willed and self-content West
threw a verdict.
"It's time we consolidate our positions in Europe".
What we see IS a foul play. Instead of continuing to strengthen
stability in Europe by including Russia into play, they take
advantage of its weakened state and simply try to dictate their
will once again. The irony is that maybe it is the only way
to get Russia out of the prolonging coma -- time to wake up
and look into the eyes of the truth. One should defend one's
interests and not rely on the good-will and suave talk of
the business magnates. This is the only way to gain respect
in the corrupt human world.

Yuri

In article >,
Alexander N. Bossy > wrote:


  I apologize to the readers of all those NGs for the utter nonsence
    they exposed from  under this topic.

   Alexander Bossy seems to me one of the many Usenet mental disordered
    that choose the target and follow his/her every article on Usenet
    with sensless insults and crap. 

   My apologies again that it follows my posts, but
    Internet is full of sick people, we have to live with it.


Elena

I am amazed at the level of this discussion.

Just stop for a minute and imagine that you live on one street with a
rapist, murderer and a robber. Would you feel safe even if the guy was
sort of quiet for a few years? Wouldn't you try to protect yourself with
whatever means you have? 

It is clear that Russia is not trusted or loved by her neighbors. It is
different on a personal level, though. I have never faced hostility
toward me. But I can easily imagine dislike for Russians as a nation. It
doesn't matter if the particular rulers of Russia were ethnic Russians or
not. No one outside the country is going to make this distinction. 

And I don't see how relevant to the situation is the Vietnam war, or
killing of Native Americans few hundred years ago. If our neighboring
countries chose the US as their protector, it is their right. They
probably will feel safer. Especially considering the situation Russia is
in now. Political instability, economical indeterminacy--a neighbor whose
house can blow up any minute!

I understand that political leaders of Russia must at least demonstrate
their disagreement with NATO expansion. It's politics. But what about us,
people? Why don't we be honest and intelligent enough to accept the fact
and to understand its origins? Feeling at least somewhat ashamed would
help too. And I do feel ashamed even though I love Russia, which I
consider my mother land, very much. I hope, I pray that sometime this 
chaos will end and Russia will become a civilized country. But right now I
believe we have no moral right to tell other nations or countries what
they should or should not do. I also don't think it's a good idea to call
them names, to say that they are small, or insecure, or simply stupid. It
is not the best way to become good neighbors. 

Sincerely,

Yelena.

On 24 Feb 1997 04:57:20 GMT,  (elena danielyan)
wrote:

>In article >,
>Mr. Kudla > wrote:
>>In article >,  says...
>>{....}
>>>       NATO, a military alliance, is being used now as a tool
>>>        in economic competition. You're begging to take you
>>>        for nothing in that game, so you will be treated as worth
>>>         nothing.

>>Are you threatnig us ,too?

>;-) No one is or was making any threats under this topic.

Comrad Elena "the Lair" Danielyan lies again.

>>I do not want to insult your intelligence, so please give us
>>ONE good reason (save  all that old fashioned mumbling), just
>>the reason,  why Russia is doing everything to stop us
>>from geting our "destiny. " Why don't you just say:" Go ahead.
>>Make my day!"
>
>Probably because Russia doesn't like NATO missles deployed
>around her borders.

Comrad Elena "the Lair" Danielyan lies once again.  NATO has
specifically stated that it has no intention of deploying missiles on
the territory of her new members.

>Don't worry, you'll here that after/if become NATO members
>while still depending on Russian gas and energy ;-)

This threat didn't keep Iliescu in power.  It won't keep any country
invited into NATO out.  In fact, it only serves to increase the fear
and anxiety about potential Russian adventurism.

Alexander
Comrad Elena "the Lair" Danielyan's Class Enemy

I have edited my return address in order to avoid the
gross excess in junk e-mail infesting the net. 
To e-mail me, just remove the word spamfree
from my address.

Dear Joe (Pannon),

%% Riots break out over Madonna's Evita
%% 
%% Riots have erupted in cinema across Argentina with the opening night of
%% the film Evita. Some cinemas had to be evacuated when protesters sprayed
%% pesticides.
%% 
%% Argentina Vice-President Carlos Ruckauf had called for boycott of the
%% film saying it defamed the memory of first lady Peron, who died 1952.
%% 
%% 02-22-1997, Sky News TeleText 

I think, based on your previous postings to soc.culture.magyar, the
previous news was interesting for you. As far as I can remember,
you liked the film Evita. Maybe, Madonna is a great bitch,---although
for me she is too old and fat, but this is a matter of taste,---and I
agree that her voice is more pleasant than the roar of lions in the
Budapest ZOO, but as you can see, it is more politics than "art".

I was always suspicious toward this film. I did not think that the
group who produced the film can produce anything valuable and
especially anything correct. Do not forget: they are (real political)
friends of Gabor Demszky, the Major of Budapest, one of the possible
leader of SZDSZ (so called Free "Democrats") in the post-Petho---and
post-parliament (as several people hopes, thanks to their present
popularity) era. And it explains everything.

As a Hungarian I feel some kind of shame that our government and 
especially my town, Budapest City made possible (for almost nothing)
to these (Politically [in]Correct deep-liberal) guys to produce this
film which hurts the feelings so many people in Argentina, and the
book written how the film was made, in Hungary. On the other hand I
hope, that supporting this film by Budapest will not cause any
problems between the two states, which at least to my knowledge is normal.

An other sad, and I think, the more important, information that the
producer and director, wants to produce a film this year in Hungary
with (the Politically [in]Correct) Robert Koltai (the director of the
film "Sose halunk meg".  [Do no mix the PC Koltai with Gabor Koltai,
the director of "Honfoglalas"!  He is an other person.  They do not
have anything common than their names.  Their every other component
is orthogonal.  At least he (G.K.) did not hurt the feelings of
millions of people, but only 6-8000 SZDSZ funs---see the Web Narancs,
if you do not get sick of it. One can criticize his film on several
levels, but it helped the imagination of hundreds of thousands of
people about Honfoglalas. This film was the _only_ event in 1996
which was worthy of the celebrations of Honfoglalas. It is a real
shame, and it shows the real attitudes of the present government,
especially SZDSZ.]

The director of Evita calls himself  Hungarian (I feel some shame
here), if it is his interest. I think, there will be several
problems from this for real Hungarians, who usually call themselves
Hungarian when it is _not necessarily_ their personal interest.

Robert Koltai's "Sose halunk meg" essentially served as an SZDSZ
propaganda film for the former elections. Its general mood and
especially its timing proves that.  It was essentially made from the
money of the taxpayers. It was very popular among SZDSZ and
certain MSZP supporters (close to Szekeres and his gang), and among
some idiots on the right---you know who,  I am sure. It served
for several people---especially for intellectuals---as an emotional
foundation and background against the previous government, on the
basis of constant---naturally unfounded---accusations, which were/are
widely discussed in the Hungarian media, and I know that you know
more than healthy about it. So I do not feel to my duty to discuss
them here. (And especially, I do not want to participate in the
distribution of false information and false accusations.)

I think, there is a pattern here. (And I think more, it can be
proved.) The producers of Evita has received the recording rights on
places of Budapest for almost free. So they can make  some unusual
extra profit from the film. From this money they give back to
Demszky's group making a not-so successfull (this is my guess, based
on the present popularity of these Free "Democrats") SZDSZ propaganda
film, which will be better---from propaganda point of view---, and
not so obviously SZDSZ supporter as Rober Koltai's film. For the film
the producers probably receive some support from Budapest and receive
recording rights for almost _free_.  (This is the secret---and the
ethimology---of the _Free_ Democrats. To acquire the money of the
Hungarian state and taxpayers for _free_.)

So, poor Hungarians will support (again) an anti-Hungarian propaganda
film from their tax-forints, now made by not only a
liberal-bolshevik idiot, but a Hollywood "star" (which is only a bit
better). It reminds me very much for the infamous "Tocsik Case", or
"1000^th Case". It is the same pattern. How to finance the
liberal-bolshevik propaganda machine from taxpayers money. A new
feature that non-Hungarian citizens are involved. (And not from
Brunei, but from the US. This is also an other---widely
discussed---pattern in the (almost non-existing) opposition media. 
On the Internet you can read about it from Istvan Lovas's articles.
The present US government supports communists in Eastern Europe. See
the support of the red dictator Lukasenko or the present support of
the communist opposition in Albania. An other tendency that they
"privatize" this support. (Not the first time. It was done also in
the Reagen era. So it is party independent, except that I cannot
imagine about the Reagen administration to support communists.) Soros
and the liberal media for example is involved in the Alban crisis. 
And not on the side of the anti-communist Alban government.)

This situation also explains why the SZDSZ wants to control the money
spent for the elections. They built tricky schemes to finance their
election campaign, while the opposition not. So, the shortage of money
would cripple their election campaign. This is partially valid even
for the MSZP, as we could realize from a debate of Tamas Bauer (SZDSZ)
and the other communist liar Sandor Csintalan (MSZP), on DUNA TV a week
ago.

I think, it is the duty---and not only the duty, but its
interest---of the opposition to start a serious investigation in the
Budapest City Council (Fovarosi Kozgyules) on this issue.  As far as
I know, there was some investigation, but it did not dig deep enough.

This is the way how things work now in Hungary. But do not be so sad.
There is some hope. Smallholders are on the roads. If it
continues---and I am sure it will, because the government does not
bend, and on the other hand you can cut wood on the back of Hungarian
peasants, but if they  dig their heels in, they are worst than a
mule---the "Blockade of Taxi Drivers" would be a meeting of former
classmates in grammar school in comparison with this protest. If this
protest movement 
develops big enough, it is possible that we can vote
even in June, this year.

I always enjoy your posts. All the best for you and your family,

Tibor

Tibor O'dor

Ps.: Because I have limited access to soc.culture.magyar, please
send your comments to >.