test.

Doug Holmes wrote:
>
> just testing. I subscribed a week ago and there hasn't been a single message.
>
> Doug HolmesDear Doug:

It appears that the Listserver is overloaded or down.  None of us have
been receiving many messages, save a few that sneaks through.  Welcome to
the group and with time, you'll be receiving messages by the hundreds!

Regards
Aniko D.

Dear Colleagues,

Please find attached a Hungarian language description of web-sites dealing
with Hungarian history, prepared by Szabolcs Magyarody, Peter Kaslik, Andras
Szeitz and Andrew Simon. Thanks to all of them for their valuable
contributions.

The addresses for history are:
http://www.net.hu/corvinus
http://www.msstate.edu/archives/history/hungary
http://www.mediarange.com/media/huncor/huncor.htm

Addresses for Danube lawsuit information:
http://www.goodpoint.com/duna.htm
http.//origo.hnm.hu/danube_doc/
http:/gurukul.ucc.american.edu/TED/HUNGARY.HTM
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
World Wide Web is CD-ROM Hirek

1996 novemberetol harom konyvunk olvashato az Interneten:

1.  Borsody Istvan: The New Central Europe,
2.  Gorgenyi Laszls: The  Tragedy of Central Europe, es
3.  Montgomery:  Hungary the Unwilling Satellite.

Romsics Ignac: Wartime American Plans for a New Hungary, napokon belul,
Borsody: Hungary The Divided Nation, Lazar: Hungary, a Brief History,
Macartney: Hungary. A Short History, Bandholtz: An Undiplomatic Diary,
Horthy: Memoirs (dr. Simon Andras atdolgozasa uj konyvnek tekintheto) es
meg sok mas konyvunk pedig a feldolgozas iramatol fuggoen kerul a  Webre.

Konyveinket az alanti  "cimen" lehet olvasni:

http://www.net.hu/corvinus

Szeitz Andras es dr. Simon Andras munkaja nyoman tobb ertekes konyv, cikk,
terkepek, zene (himnusz, stb.) cimerek  hivhatok le  a Mississippi State
University  Amerika-szerte ismert tvrtinelmi archivuma cimen:

 http://www.msstate.edu/archives/history/hungary

Ez hozza van kapcsolva (link) a mi cimunkhoz, tehat onnan is hivhato

A Kaslik Piter altal feltett Lote: Transylvania and the Theory of
Daco-Roman-Rumanian continuity cimu  konyvet ezen a szamon lehet lehivni:

http://www.mediarange.com/media/huncor/huncor.htm

Termiszetesen, majdnem  minden itt emlitett  kvnyv a mi  Corvinus Web
site-unkon is rvvidesen megjelenik.

ACD-ROM lemezunk elso kiadasahoz legalabb 20 konyv szukseges. Amint  kesz,
rogton nyomjuk.

Kerunk mindenkit, hogy terjessze a hirt, hogy minel tobben olvashassak, es
hivatkozhassanak konyveinkre a vilagon.

Magyarody Szabolcs
cscst, ocs. vt. KMCsSz
42 Juanita Dr.
Hamilton, ON
L9C 2G3, Canada

Fax: 1-905-389-0248
E-mail: 

This is test.  Please ignore.

At 23:15 29-12-1996 -0600, you wrote:
>I am seeking to contact members of the Kmet family. I am a first
>generation American of Hungarian decent,(my mother immigrated to the U.S.
>in 1923)  wishing to contact others related to the Kmett family.
>
>Contact 

Kaliman,

I saw your post on the Hungary list serve.

Your problem is one which can be solved by applying the techniques of
standard genealogy research. A collegue of mine does this sort of thing
professionally. I am giving him a copy of this reply.

Also, you can do this research yourself by learning how. That's where my
genealogy newsletter can help. You can find out more at my website listed below
.

Let me know if interested in the newsletter. Email Mr. Felix Game if
interested in having a professional find out data for you.

Sincerely,

Doug Holmes

   ================================================================
Doug da Rocha Holmes            | Doug Holmes - Director
------------------------------- | Hungarian/American Friendship Society
Specialist in Azorean Genealogy | Website: www.dholmes.com/hafs.html
Website: www.dholmes.com        | (Specializing in Hungarian & Slovak genealogy
)
   ================================================================

Dear Colleagues,

Please find attached a letter by Archbishop Istvan Seregily dealing with the
csango issue followed by my response to it. Both are in Hungarian, and I am
afraid that the accent marks might make them hard to read. My apologies for
that. I am distributing these letters for both to inform you and to benefit
from your advice on how to proceed?

Best regards: Bela Liptak

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Letter addressed to me by Dr. Istvan Seregily, Archbishop of Gyo" r
H-3309 Eger, Szichenyi u. 1, HUNGARY
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Igen tisztelt Uram!

              Kvszvnvm ismitelten hozzam irkezett levelit (3x).
        Sajnalom, hogy tives informacisnak adott hitelt. Engem senki sem
bmzott meg, sem mas p|spvktarsamat afrikai feladatokkal. Msgr. Cheli irsekkel
iletemben nihanyszor talalkoztam. Az altala vezetett papai bizottsagnak
azomban sem tagja, sem vnkintese nem vagyok.
             A csangskkal kapcsolatban megirtem aggodalmat, de az Egyhaz nem
fel|lro" l iranymtott tarsasag, hanem bel|lro" l elkvtelezett emberek,
Istennel vals vnkintes kvzvssige. Mgy csak a csangskhoz tudom iranymtani
gondjaival. Vagy  o"k megoldjak maguk identitasuk megvrzisit, vagy senki mas.
Egyibkint to" l|k tudom, hogy nem akarnak sem magyarok lenni, sem romanok, o"
k csangsk akarnak maradni. (Nalunk ingyen tanuls kispapjaik, Nagyromania
tirkipit teszik ki szobaikban, s mig Erdilybe sem kmvannak szolgalatot
teljesmteni, tisztelet a kivitelnek.
                    Minket, mindegyik|nket itthon szorongat a magyarsag jvvo"
je. Ezt viszont itthon kell megoldanunk. Fil millisval vagyunk mar
kevesebben. Tragikus jelensig, hogy a magyar csaladnak is inkabb kell az
auts, a kutya, meg a macska, mint a magyar gyerek. Js lenne, ha a
gyermekszereto"  csaladok irdekiben tennink meg minden to" l|nk telheto" t,
mi akik aggsdunk jvvo" nk felett.
             A jvvo" hvz reminyt ads Karacsonyt is aldott zj ivet kmvanok.
             Tisztelettel is nagyrabecs|lissel: Seregily Istvan, Egri irsek

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
My response
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Kelt Stamfordban, 1997 januar 4-in

Dr. Seregily Istvan
Egri Irsek
H-3309  Eger
Szichenyi u. 1, HUNGARY

Milyen tisztelt Irsek Zr!

Megkvszvnvm december 15-i levelit is elnizisit kirem, hogy hibas
informacisnak adtam  hitelt Msgr. Cheli irsek munkajat illeto" en.

A moldvai csangsk dolgaban szeretnim megjegyezni, hogy az   allapotukrsl
szemilyesen tajikozsdtam mzlt novemberi latogatasom folyaman, mint az a
mellikletekbo" l is kider|l. O"k tajikoztattak arrsl, hogy sajat papjaik is
p|spvk|k akadalyozzak o"ket abban, hogy megoldjak "maguk identitasanak
megvrzisit", a katolikus egyhaz helyi vezeto"i tagadjak meg to"l|k azt az
alapveto"  jogat minden hmvo"nek, hogy anyanyelvin (nem magyarzl, de nem is
romanzk, hanem a maguk csangs nyelvin!) hallgathassak Isten igijit.

Az, hogy Nagyromania tirkipit teszik a falra, s az hogy Erdilyben sem
kivannak szolgalatot teljesmteni, nem az O"  szigyen|k, hanem a miink. Azirt
a mi szigyen|nk, mert nem irtj|k is tisztelj|k kello"en az O", sok
ivszazados, nagy aldozattal mego"rzvtt archaikus kultzrajukat, hanem, mi mint
valami problimatsl, a romanok, mint valami idegento"l, de mindketten meg
szabadulni kivanunk attsl. Erdilyben k|lvnvsen felt|nt nikem az vnalls csangs
identitas iranti irtetlensig, s a csangssag sokivszazados pildanilk|li
teljesmtminyinek kijars tisztelet hianya. Nem csodalom, hogy kispapjaik nem
kmvannak Erdelyben szolgalni.

Zgy is, mint volt pannonhalmi, majd piarista diak, termiszetesen osztom Irsek
Zrnak ama gondjait, melyek nipemnek a magyar allam ter|letin bel|l ilo"
 riszire vonatkoznak, s nem kmvannam, hogy a csangs gondokkal az O" rovasukra
foglalkozzunk, de azt igen, hogy azok mellett vil|k, ivszazadok sta tavol
ilo", testvirtelen testvireinkkel is tvro"dj|nk, s tegy|k meg irt|k azt, amit
megtenni kipesek vagyunk. Ez nem ellenkezik azzal, hogy a magyar
nepszaporulat csokkenese ellen is kuzdjunk.

 O"szinte tisztelettel is nagyrabecs|lissel,
Liptak Bela


Liptak Bila

I have browsed other Hungarian lists and found that some of them are of great
service to our country.  This is not one of them.

I found a beautiful Hungarian web-site assembled by Andras Szeitz, and letters
by Bela Liptak, Peter Soltesz on behalf of Hungarian interests and Hungarians
living in Yugoslavia, Slovakia, and Romania.

We are indebted to Kriszti Mendonca for her work to prevent the ecological
disaster of Danube basin.  I have used text produced by Liptak and Mendonca to
address these issues to the United States government and the local press.
Thank you Bela and Kriszti.

All of us who live outside of Hungary are representatives of Hungary, like it
or not.  Those who are blessed with wealth of unusual intellect have a special
responsibility to use their wealth intellect to help our people.  I have only
pity for people like Eva Balogh, who lost all sense of our history and
culture.

This list also politely tolerates the anti-Hungarian venom of Sam Stowe.  To
paraphrase a former vice-presidential candidate;

I know Americans, Americans are my friends, Sam Stowe is not an American.

In my view, it would be no great loss, if this list got cancelled.

Istvan Lippai

----------
From:  Hungarian Discussion List on behalf of Eva S. Balogh
Sent:  Sunday, December 22, 1996 1:35 PM
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Re: Greetings

"Johanne L. Tournier" > wrote:

>I would also like to echo Bandi's sentiments that despite on-going
>tiffs, we have become a virtual community. It is a rather nice feeling -
>maybe there is some good to come out of our deprivation, after all, if
>we are brought to a realization of how special this community is.

        I agree with you, guys. I miss all of you, even Mr. Lippai. (Well, not
quite!)

        I wish all of you a very, very happy holiday season, Eva B.

At 03:03 AM 12/29/96 GMT, Agnes wrote:

>>It is absolutely not representative of Hungarian folk music.  As a
>matter of fact, when I saw the English Patient and heard that song, I was
>quite annoyed, never for one minute believing the song being Hungarian.
>I even discussed this with my girl friend and she also thought that
>Hungary being such a small country, people think they can put in anything
>in an American film and people will believe it. The melody sounds Arabic
>and I didn't understand one word of it.  Of course, I never heard of
>Marta Sebestyen either, she is obviously a modern diva.
>>
>Agnes
>
>

Agnes,  Marta Sebestyen has been around for a while now, singing with a
Hungarian Group called the Muzsikas, as well as others.  She recently won a
Grammy with a French/International group called Deep Forrest.

Last year she had a sold out performance in New York at Symphony Space,
which hold 1,800 seats, most of them filled with American fans.

Her style IS Hungarian, although very different from what is called"magyar
nota".  Her singing is a lot closer to original recordings taken by
Kodaly/Bartok.  This style became very much favored in Hungary in the
60/70's, when the Tanc Haz movement and other similar projects culled the
countryside both in Hungary as well as the neighboring countries  for
original, authentic Hungarian folk music and then performed them.

We, at the New York Hungarian House, usually hold a Tanc Haz once a month,
where our local group, the Eletfa performs this style of music.

As with any kind of music, not everyone likes this style, and to someone
hearing it for the first time, it can sound jarring, but then so can rock
and roll.

What seems remarkable is that Marta's voice and singing seems to be very
much in demand in Hollywood.  The English Patient seems to be her third film...

By the way, what did you think of the English Patient?  We saw it last
weekend, my wife loved it, I was somewhat underwhelmed.

best wishes for the New Year,


Charlie Vamossy

---------------------
Forwarded message:
Subj:    Fwd: A Hagai "DUNA-PER" megindult...
Date:    97-01-03 16:31:49 EST
From:    LendvaImre
To:      Liptakbela

Kedves Bela!

Tovabbitom Lukacs Tibi e-mail-et, hogy tudjal rola.

Jo munkat!

Imre
---------------------
Forwarded message:
From:    (tibor lukacs)
To:     
CC:     , ,
, , 
Date: 97-01-02 09:47:33 EST

Tisztelt Barataim,Cserkesztestverek:

Amint gondolom hallottatok--megindult a Hagai Duna-per. Ez az ugy a
cserkesztorvenyeink
hatodik pontjat: ....a termeszetszeretetet, allat es novenyvilag
megkimeleset ugy mint a szulohazank fele iranyulo megvedest teljes egeszeben
erinti.

Itt a lehetoseg hogy tegyunk ami tolunk telik.

A "per-rol" reszletesebben tudakozni lehet az :
http://www.goodpoint.com/duna.htm
hivo cim alatt....

          1. olvassatok el a fenti web-oldalt

          2. ha modotokban van, tukrozzetek a sajat web oldalaitokon vagy
tovabbitsatok
             mas web rendszereknek

          3. irjatok a helybeli kepviseloiteknek ---iranyitva oket Haga fele

          4. irjatok ilyesfajta  electronikus leveleket azoknak akiket ti is
             ismertek

          5. az fontosabb angol ill. masnyelvu redekeltek figyelmet is fel
             kell hivni erre az ugyre

Mindezek altal biztosak lehetunk  hogy az "IGAZSAG"  mi oldalunkon fog
eredmenyezni.


Koszonettel kivanok jo munkat,

tibor (lukacs)

****************************************************************************
***********

At 21:24 31-12-1996 +0200, you wrote:
>Dear colleagues and friends,
>
>It's with a grief in the heart that I recommend you the
>following reading:
>
>Los Angeles Times, 31 Dec 96
>COLUMN ONE
>The State as Stage Manager
>
>by DEAN E. MURPHY, Times Staff Writer
>
>This is a very good resume of the year 1996 in the Slovak
>culture and also the other major events are mentioned.
>
>The URL is http://www.latimes.com/HOME/NEWS/FRONT/t000114174.html
>
>I wish you all a New Year that will be better than that.
>
>Roman Kanala

This is no longer available at the URL you mentioned - too old. Do you have
a copy of it?

Doug Holmes
   ================================================================
Doug da Rocha Holmes            | Doug Holmes - Director
------------------------------- | Hungarian/American Friendship Society
Specialist in Azorean Genealogy | Website: www.dholmes.com/hafs.html
Website: www.dholmes.com        | (Specializing in Hungarian & Slovak genealogy
)
   ================================================================

back today.

Missed you all,

Anna

there is one, sometimes two IRC channel #magyar and #hungary  if you have
client software for IRC but no "chatroom" which is an AOL  creation not an
Internet feature.

Alex

On Dec 24,  3:53am, Andrew J. Rozsa wrote:
> Subject: Re: Some ideas to make life easier
>  (Eva S. Balogh) wrote:
> >I will tell him about bitnet.hungary.
> >
> >       By the way, I will also write to Gabor Farkas and tell him about
> >bitnet.hungary

 Please note that bitnet.hungary is a very idiosyncratic (and this unfortunate)
naming of the list/group, which is unlikely to be known that way at most
providers. The standard Usenet naming is bit.listserv.hungary and that's how
most sites carrying gatewayed lists show it. In this respect I would also like
to reiterate my jeremiad about the very inadequate propagation of articles on
the Usenet side of things - the original email access via 
remains the most reliable channel (with the exception of the rare LISTSERV
hiccups we've just encountered - but then when that happens then the Usenet
gatewayed group becomes fairly useless until the list comes back on, in any
event).

>[...]
> I am pretty sure that I have let on to someone that
>
>   bit.listserv.hungary
>
> is actually a Usenet newsgroup,

 Be reminded, though, that it is only sort of a newsgroup (Usenetters unaware
of dealing with what primarily is an email list face endless confusion, not to
mention the above-mentioned inadequate propagation).

> therefore accessible via your favorite newsreader (client).

 That's indeed true, and is good for people who prefer news to email (and/or
those whose main client for Net-access client is Netscape - which in turn is
not a good newsreader, but could serve well enough for browsing the list as
well). For the other side fo the coin I'd like to mention that some of the
better email clients such as my fave Pine - which recently came out with true
Windows versions - combine newsreading functionality with email, so some people
may want to check those out. There one can even switch between the LISTSERV
folder mode and the newsgroup view. And many newer mail programs, whether or
not able to access news, can also handle the extras like MIME and inline
launching.

 -- Zoli, .sig under construction

Ez speciel mindenhova, ahol vagy a bit.listserv.hungary Usenet gatewayed
csoport vagy kozvetlenul a HUNGARY LISTSERV-lista elofizetett...

On Dec 28, 12:31pm,  wrote:
> Subject: kokatest
> Ez most hova megy?
> -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
>       http://www.dejanews.com/     Search, Read, Post to Usenet
>-- End of excerpt from 

On Dec 29,  7:46pm, Eva S. Balogh wrote:
>  (S or G Farkas) wrote:
>
> >Aniko Dunford > wrote:
>
> >>Still I can't understand why Zoli or Jozsi
> >>would not reply to requests as to what may be going on.

 Speaking for the former only :-), I've set NOMAIL to the HUNGARY list (ie. was
not receiving messages) for a few moths now, to struggle with my emailbox'
overload ;-(. Even when I was browsing it I had requested that people copy
personally to me anything that they may want to be sure to catch my attention,
or else I could not ever get around noticing much less aswering ;-). Moreover,
obviously when the list isn't being distributed than questions about it won't
be seen either if submitted to it rather than sent to someone (preferably to
the listowner , or if all else fails then to my humble
self) personally...

 Just now suddenly I started getting dozens of old list posts from before Xmas
on, which must have been held up due to some major technical problems with the
server (which eventually caused my NOMAIL setting lost as well, apparently).
This means this trouble is over, as no doubt everybody would see before
reaching this message in the queue!

> >I have read on HIX that Jozsi Hollosi is in Hungary for the holidays.
> >This explains that (and the fact that HIX papers were somewhat late or
> >missing lately). Zoli Fekete was very quiet lately, possibly he is
> >also out of town.

 Don't I wish ;-<. As for Jozsi, notice that he does NOT have anything to do
directly with the HUNGARY list per se, merely handles gatewaying it with a
paralel HIX distribution. (I have also heard of recent HIX outages,
incidentally, but these days I follow those even less than the LISTSERV list
here, so I don't know anything concrete about that - still, Jozsi should be
able to handle it even from out of country thanks to this thing called Internet
;-), although I heard they had some hardware trouble too with some HIX thingies
that may need personal attendance to fix well).

 BUEK to everyone, and take note that I will be off the list again so contact
me personally if help is needed!

-- Zoli

Yes, here voice is like that. I have that CD too.  I can recommend one
more titled ATTILA (the Hun). She has a very nice song on it too.
I wish you happy listening.

Kind Regards,

   Dr. Nandor BALOGH

EMails: 

On Fri, 27 Dec 1996, Sam Stowe wrote:

> Hi, Gang!
> I received Ma'rta Sebestye'n's album, Lovessongs, for Christmas and have
> really enjoyed listening to it. I have a few questions, though. First, do
> all of her albums sound like this? She has a beautiful voice, but the
> instrumental accompaniment on the album was a tad too electronically
> synthesized for my tastes. Am I better off getting her albums with
> Muzsikas if I want to hear her backed by more traditional instrumentation?
> Second, is this singing style of hers typical of Hungarian folk music or
> is she sui generis? The music on this album sounds like it has Celtic and
> Middle Eastern elements to it. I like it and it didn't take me twice
> listening through it all the way before I picked up the tunes. If this is
> a pretty representative sample of Hungarian folk music, I think I'd like
> to start collecting some more. Any suggestions?
> Sam Stowe
>
>
>
>
> "Alright, that's it! I've had it up
> to here with that grieving chicken
> widow crap!..."
> -- Ren Hoek
>

This is the continuation of my critique of the newly published
FIDESZ discussion papers.

        The second chapter's title is "Hungary in 1996," which begins with a
short sub-chapter: "Historical Antecedents." Briefly it outlines the history
of the Rakosi and Kadar regimes and it emphasizes the development of a
"socialist ruling class," which ruled with the help of occupying Soviet
forces. Its criticism of the essence of the regime is well taken, but there
are a couple places where its description needs some amplification or rather
correction.         First, I don't think that the importance of Hungary's
belonging to the Soviet sphere of interest is emphasized enough. The paper's
emphasis is on "the socialist elite," without pointing out that none of the
post-war political and thus economic development would have taken place,
including the formation of this "socialist elite," without the Soviet
presence in Eastern Europe. Thus, the creation and development of this elite
is really secondary to the post-war division of Europe.
        Second, there is a reference to the "trampled on
bourgeois/middle-class society" which didn't give up and which "in 1956 arms
in hand expelled the new ruling class and its Soviet supporters." This is
not quite correct. It was the workers who fought with arms in hand and
demanded a multi-party system. I'm afraid, the middle-class (the "polgari
Magyarorszag") had practically no role in the events of 1956, except perhaps
at the very end when the battle had been already won.
        Third, the summary focuses too narrowly on "the socialist political
elite," as if a small "ruling elite" alone, single-handedly, could run a
country, even if it received foreign support. Oh, no, both before and after
1956 the regime relied heavily on the multitudes of supporters. Especially
this was true by the late 1960s when people came to believe that the
"existing socialist regime" was here to stay and that it was totally useless
to resist it or not to take advantage of it. We have already talked at
length about the size of the party membership as early as the summer of 1945
(half a million) or after 1956, when by July 1957 there were 345,733 members
and it grew to be, on the average, around 800,000. This is ten percent of
the adult population and therefore it is hard to call them simply a small
"socialist political and economic elite." Whether we like it not, the
Kadar-regime relied on a fairly widely based consensus with very little
opposition. The population became convinced that the Hungarian political
elite made the best of a bad situation and they ought to be grateful that
they don't live in Poland, East Germany, Czechoslovakia, or Romania. And
indeed they were.
        A brief description of the actual change of regime
(rendszerva'lta's) is somewhat one-sided, at least in my opinion. Yes, a lot
of things were not done right during the past six or seven years but there
have been a lot of positive developments. After all, a multi-party
parliamentary system was established and the political leadership has been
relatively stable. Seventy-five percent of the state property is by now in
private hands and privatization has been real unlike in the Czech Republic.
A very sizeable amount investment came into the country: the highest amount
in the whole of Eastern Europe. These are the positive developments. Surely,
there are many negative ones as well: both agricultural and industrial
production fell and thus the living standard of the population has dropped.
Hungary's customary market, the KGST countries, collapsed. Inflation and
unemployment has been consistently high. Taxes are too high and tax evasion
is rampant. The black and grey markets constitute a third of the economy.
Corruption is high and public morals have declined. So, there are many, many
things wrong, but the FIDESZ paper emphasizes only the negative. The change
of regime, according to the discussion paper, practically consists of
nothing else but the manipulations of the former "socialist elite" to
preserve its position politically as well as economically. Surely, the
former elite was in the position to gain economically from the political
change but at the same time the change of regime meant more than a small
elite's manipulation to save its earlier gains.

        What I object to most in this section is the treatment of foreign
capital which came into the country and which have helped more than anything
else to set Hungary on the right economic path. Right at the beginning it
must be mentioned that 75 percent of Hungary's growing export comes from the
multinational companies which invested in Hungary so heavily. Yet the
FIDESZ, on the whole, seems to take a negative view of this development.
After describing all the benefits of those 12-14 billion dollars' worth of
foreign investments, the author/authors blame the foreign companies for
everything under the sun, including their choice of venue: by placing their
companies in western and central Hungary "they increased the territorial
inequality of the country." The fact is that the "territorial inequality,"
as the authors themselves admit, had existed before. Perhaps since time
immemorial the eastern part of Hungary was always less developed than the
west. It is also unlikely that home-grown companies would have established
factories in less desirable areas with less developed infrastructure and
farther away from the destination of their exporting activities. However, as
we know very well, government policy could help this situation by giving tax
brakes to companies willing to move to eastern Hungary. Or by concentrating
on the development of infrastructure to the underdeveloped areas. It is not
the *foreign" companies fault, per se, that this inequality has increased.
The author/authors also claim that the "Hungarian economy was unable to link
organically to these foreign factories." Why? Because the Hungarian
manufacturers could rarely become their suppliers. "The only thing Hungary
provided was real estate, some infrastructure, and a labor force." Yes, say
the authors, these companies supply a great deal of Hungarian exports, but
because of their vast needs of material which must be imported, they
significantly add to the Hungarian trade deficit. "If we add to this trade
deficit Hungary's debt service, the devaluation of the forint, the interests
on non-governmental loans, the capital and income of foreign (and Hungarian)
companies which leave the country, then the flight of capital is two or
three times the size of the foreign capital which arrive in the country."
Well, I guess, one can calculate that way except no one in his right mind
would: what does Hungary's debt service have do to with the establishment of
foreign companies in Hungary. Surely, nothing. This acrobatic economics
serve only to make the foreign companies responsible for Hungary's current
plight. That, of course, might be a political ploy: the leadership of the
FIDESZ knows as well as anybody that anti-foreign propaganda always sounds
good to certain ears. Such a stance may take votes away from parties farther
to the right but I think that such demagoguery is irresponsible and I am
shocked that a party like FIDESZ employs it.

        To be continued.

        Eva Balogh

In his first post to this list, Istvan Lippai wrote:

>In 1956, I was a second year student at the Technical University of >Budapest.

Later he writes:

>I was raised in "Angyalfold".  My Hungarian brothers and sisters know that
>they will not get a polite conversation from an Angyalfold-i over issues
>that I feel strongly about.  I believe that they will accept me for who I >am.

Did we all miss something?  How common was it for kids from Angyalfo:ld to
go to university if they, or their parents, weren't members of the communist
party?  I heard, and as you know I don't believe a lot of things I hear, but
I was told that it was nearly impossible to go to university if you weren't
a member.  I'd be curious to know Lippai Ur's connections.

Joe Szalai

In a message dated 96-12-10 14:01:01 EST,  (Eva S. Balogh)
writes:

> > 02:14 AM 12/10/96 GMT, Sam wrote:
>  >A week on
>  >here and you're as popular as a leper at a sorority cotillion.
>  >Sam Stowe
>
>          I just love Sam's sayings? I guess this is a Southern expression.
>
>          Eva Balogh
>
>
I *have to* join in - - I have been sitting in front of my computer giggling.
Thanks Sam!

Marina

Lippai Ur:

Remember me?  I am the one you deemed non-Hungarian, does not like you,
young person searching for my roots, troubled by my life to the point of
choosing to lash out at you in lieu of  my parents, rambling ... to name a
few of your kind adjectives re my person; since you have known me for soooo
long.

I did receive your note yesterday, and am answering for one simple reason;
that being, that I feel if I don't, your ego will enjoy unnecessary
inflation, by thinking that you'd succeeded at intimidating me.  (fact is,
my Email program let me down by crashing last night - by the time I
recovered it, our server was having troubles, so I am unable to even quote
your reply)  But let's go from memory:

"You don't like me" was I believe one of your opening statements - my reply
- is, how the hell can I can like or dislike you, when I don't know you
from Adam?  For sure though your approach and tactics did and continue to
bring out the worst reactions in me.  Nor are they conducive to drawing
compassion.

If, I appear to be rambling - well, what the hell?  Not all of us are as
apt at writing as to suit your expectations.  But it could also be, due to
the fact that you cannot remember your private notes sent to my Email
address and thus, you're loosing something in the context of my reply.
Perhaps, if I re-send them to you; or post them to the group, my rambling
can take on at least some form of acceptable logic?  Your call.

Regarding the statement of my lashing out at my parents - is a typical
example of your exhibited standard of utilizing what you consider to be
good offence, for defense.  Has anyone ever told you, that this tactic is
transparent?  If not I am telling you now.  With this comment, you managed
to sidetrack the issue of my question, regarding communists in the US for
one.  And ... please don't come back telling me, that I show no respect for
your age, and what you lived through - seeing that I am so young and all?
I repeat ... I feel extremely sorry for anyone having lived through such
ordeals ... but I have no respect whatsoever, for the way you are
presenting *your* version of Hungarian history.  As for lashing out at my
parents, or something of sort you said; you don't know a damned thing about
me, my life my past.  Nor do I care to enlighten you with any of it.  In
fact, your knowledge of me is so accurate, that only three posts ago, you
were rather apologetic, at the fact that I am not Hungarian.  Remember?

In short - I feel rather sorry for you.  You continue to make judgements on
persons you know zilch about - by manipulating their words to suit means to
your own end you attempt to bring them down in other's eyes.  (Notice, the
operative word is "attempt").  And you're absolutely right!  There are
choices on this group.  Thanks for enlightening me especially to the one
called "ignore" - you know, being so young and troubled and all;  that
option has simply never occurred to me!

When, you come down from your soap box (thanks Marina!) and attempt to show
respect for those you are trying teach, respect for their knowledge (though
it might be higher than that of your experiences) perhaps my young mind
will actually learn something ... in the meantime, all you have enforced,
is that one must always remember that there are people in the world, who
are so sly and cleverly manipulative that they can without trying at all,
make some believe that the world is rectangular.  Not to mention
hateful.... Eva B, a communist? Now there's a *real* good one!!!  Where is
your mind man?  Have you ever heard of archives?  Go back and read a few!

You, being accused of anything negative?  No!!! Not possible!!! Never!!!

Martedi, com'e' trieste il martedi con te!
Buonenotte!
Aniko - the "young, troubled, searching for roots *not* hungarian".
PS - You still remind me of Dr. Szucs!!!  More and more as the days
progress (sorry Janka)!








>

Dear Everybody,

        Hugh must have arrived from his vacation: two minutes ago I logged
on to receive my mail which is practically nothing lately and what do I see?
I have over twenty messages. My God, I said, HUNGARY must be functioning again.

        I am going to send you all the second part of my critique of the
FIDESZ discussion paper: maybe we can start a good discussion on the subject.

        Best wishes for the New Year, Eva

Peter .... I just cannot resist this one!!!

At 09:13 PM 10/12/96 -0500, Peter A. Soltesz wrote:
>On Tue, 10 Dec 1996, Eva S. Balogh wrote:
><SNIP>
>>         Apology? You must be kidding.
>>
>>         Eva Balogh
>>
>NO I am not. How would you feel if someone sent your private mail to the
>public forum? Regardless of how you feel about him personally, the issue
>is that you violated a basic trust and understanding that goes along with
>private mail.
>Peter
Peter - let's start with the fact that when you join a group of this sort,
it does not give you the right to invade other's privacy by sending them
unsolicited mail at will - let alone such hateful stuff.  So, who's
invading who's privacy, be it the issue?  (Janka is likely in the best
position of advice on this one).

Then, let's proceed with the fact, that you are in no position regarding
preaching about hurting anyone's "feelings".  I do recall, many a times,
when you went to great extent to insure, that other's feelings were placed
in delicate jeopardy.  (not unlike any of us mind you .. we all tend to
pull some good ones, now and then).  Although I never once recall reading
an apology written by you, at least, you had the decency enough to show
your face as they say to all and stuck by your guns regardless.  That, at
least is something to respect.  I can't say, that I have the same opinion
of Liptai Ur's practices.  In fact, I too have enjoyed the pleasure of
having *my* privacy invaded by his unsolicited notes.

Regards,
Aniko

Petofi referred to "szent vilagszabadsag" in a lot
of his poems (e.g. see the end of Level Arany Janoshoz
or Egy gondolat bant engemet) so he wasn't just  nationalist
in the frame of his time...



>
>         If you read Mr. Lippai's text carefully and then add his other
> relevant utterances about his religiosity I think his emphasis is not on our
> universal God but the God of the "Hungarians." Sure, Petofi used this line
> in 1848 but that was in 1848 and Petofi was a romantic nationalist and,
> something which we often forget, a very young man, practically a child. A
> hot-headed child at that.
>
>         Yes, the poem inspired us over the ages, the last time in 1956. I
> have a copy of a foto which originally appeared in 168 ora two years ago
> where one can see the base of the Petofi statue at which Sinkovics, the
> actor, recited this poem and around which hundreds of ELTE students, some
> quite recognizable, including me, stand listening to this poem and repeating
> the refrain. No question it was inspiring. But our attention wasn't focused
> on the "God of the Hungarians," but on "Esku:szu:nk, esku:szu:nk, rabok
> tova'bb nem leszu:nk." "We swear, we swear we no longer be slaves." That is
> what inspired us; that was what we wanted to achieve: freedom. Not some kind
> of particular God of Hungarians invented by romantic nationalism.
>
>         Eva Balogh

>
> Amos:
> I suppose that the issue is also whther it is constitutional for some
> govt bozo to arbitrarily HIDE the facts (so one can have definite proof
> of theoir guilt)?

The idea is universal, though I had to admit,
I thought freedom of information acts worked better in the
US, than in the UK. You have to wait here a very
long time before you get to know what the
govt. was upto.

You have to wonder about the ethics of far left and communists.

Noam Chomsky's obvious anti-Semitic statements are glossed over by the far
left and communists.

He can do no wrong because he is the leading anti-American hate monger.

Let some well meaning humanitarian object to the brutality of Israeli security
forces (torturing prisoners, breaking the bones of children caught throwing
stones), and watch the fireworks.

The same people who feel outraged at an expression of Hungarian pride, and
scream fascism, extreme nationalism, anti-Semitism, would give Noam Chomsky a
standing ovation.

According to far left and communist ethics, hate is good as long as you hate
America also.

Istvan Lippai
----------
From:  Hungarian Discussion List on behalf of Joe Szalai
Sent:  Tuesday, December 10, 1996 6:40 PM
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Re: To everybody

At 08:43 PM 12/10/96 GMT, Sam Stowe wrote:

<snip>
>I knew you wouldn't be able to uphold your end of the debate on this one.
>I need to lighten up on you.

Not so fast, Sam!  What makes you think I'm not upholding my end of the
debate?  I just claimed that your thesis is "anti-democratic".  You're not
defending yourself.  Are you saying I'm right?  If you are, then you're
conceding that your ideas are anti-democratic.  If you observe politics
closely, you'll see that anti-democratic ideas are in vogue, big time.  Are
you just being stylish or is your heart in it as well?

Or, maybe I should lighten up on you.

Joe Szalai

"I have often thought that if a rational Fascist dictatorship were to exist,
then it would choose the American system."
      Noam Chomsky

At 09:44 AM 12/11/96 UT, Istvan Lippai wrote:

>You have to wonder about the ethics of far left and communists.
>
>Noam Chomsky's obvious anti-Semitic statements are glossed over by the far
>left and communists.
>
>He can do no wrong because he is the leading anti-American hate monger.
>
>Let some well meaning humanitarian object to the brutality of Israeli security
>forces (torturing prisoners, breaking the bones of children caught throwing
>stones), and watch the fireworks.
>
>The same people who feel outraged at an expression of Hungarian pride, and
>scream fascism, extreme nationalism, anti-Semitism, would give Noam Chomsky a
>standing ovation.
>
>According to far left and communist ethics, hate is good as long as you hate
>America also.

This is a rather sudden and unexpected change in the thread, Lippai Ur.  I
can't wait till you get to Hungarian gays and lesbians.  Would you care to
share your thoughts on homosexuality?  What about gypsies?  I can't wait for
your words of wisdom.

You were a member of the communist party right up until October 23, 1956,
weren't you?  That's why you remembered that the United States didn't accept
communists as immigrants.  No?  I bet you were as happy as a pig in shit
when you passed American immigration in 1957.  Tell us more, Miszter Nagy
Magyar.

Joe Szalai

"The intellectual tradition is one of servility to power, and if I didn't
betray it I'd be ashamed of myself."
          Noam Chomsky

At 19:17 10/12/96 -0500, Joe Szalai wrote:
>At 02:36 PM 12/9/96 -0400, Johanne L. Tournier, in Re: The English Patient,
>asked:
>
><snip>
>>Did Vambery ever travel to England?
>
>Yes, he did.  Vambery dedicated "The Coming Struggle for India, Being an
>Account of the Encroachments of Russia in Central Asia, and of the
>Difficulties Sure to Arise Therefrom to England", published in 1885, to
>Russell Shaw, Esq.  In the dedication, dated July 2, 1885, Buda Pesth
>University, Vambery wrote:

><snip middle part>

>Other books by Vambery include:
>"Sketches of Central Asia"
>"Hungary in Ancient Mediaeval, and Modern Times" co-authored with Louis
Heilprin
>"Etymologisches Worterbuch der turko-tatarischen Sprachen"
>
>Hope this helps.
>
>Joe Szalai

Thank you, Joe! This is just great! Now, can you tell me where I could get
those books and Vambery's autobiography, which Eva B. mentioned? Maybe
inter-library loan if not a local bookstore? Preferably in English, but I
would take them in Hungarian - it just takes me ages to translate it, that's
all.

BTW, is anybody aware if in any of his writings he mentioned Vlad Dracula,
also known as Vlad Tepes (the Impaler), the evil Romanian Voivode who lent
his name to Stoker's vampire?

Megint nagyon sze'pen ko:szo:no:m,

Johanne/Janka
>
>
Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 

Hi, Hugh!

I suddenly have 13 messages from the List on my e-mail, so I assume that
means you have returned from Xmas vacation and unstuck the List. Finally! If
you read the archive for the time that you were gone, you will see that
people felt the List had been cut off (terminated) and were quite upset.

It was really frustrating, I will admit. Would it not be possible to
designate someone where you are located with access to the computer to
unstick things if this happens while you are away? It was especially
frustrating in this instance, because everything stopped just when the
traffic rose, and there were some really interesting and enthusiastic
discussions going on in several different threads. I think it is ridiculous
to have the List stop working when the traffic goes up beyond 50 messages a
day. Just when things get good - boom we're cut off, and after three weeks
or so, everyone has of course, lost the threads of the discussions.

Maybe you could post a word of explanation to the List; I think people would
appreciate it.

Anyway, it is great to have you and the List back!

 Boldog u'j esztendo"t kivanok!

Janka/Johanne
Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 

United Nations Daily Highlights, 96-12-09

DAILY HIGHLIGHTS
Monday, 9 December 1996
-
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
_This document is prepared by the Central News Section of the Department
of
Public Information and is updated every week-day at approximately 6:00
PM._

HEADLINES

* Security Council gives go-ahead for the implementation of oil- for-food
formula on Iraq.
* UN Secretary-General says situation in Tajikistan has deteriorated in
last three months.
* Prospects for improvement of confidence among local Serb population is
harmed by lack of progress in investigations on 1995 human rights
violations, UN Secretary-General says.
* Fourth Review Conference of States Parties to Biological Weapons
Convention approves Final Declaration expressing support for verification
protocol for international treaty.
* Fifth Committee allocates $242 million to peace-keeping missions in
former Yugoslavia for first half of 1997.
* International Conference on Illicit Trafficking in Stolen Vehicles
concludes in Warsaw; endorses model treaty to standardise action by
States.
* World Heritage Committee of UNESCO adds new names to list of protected
cultural and natural sites.
* Climate change negotiators debate new emissions controls.
-
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
Security Council has given the go-ahead for the implementation of
resolution 986 on the oil-for-food formula for Iraq. The Council
President,
Ambassador Francesco Paolo Fulci of Italy told UN correspondents Monday
that all the actions necessary to ensure the effective implementation of
resolution 986 had been completed.

He said paragraphs 1 and 2, which authorise States to permit the import of
oil or oil products originating in Iraq, will come into force midnight
Monday United States Eastern Standard Time, for an initial period of 180
days.

The revenue from the sale of Iraqi oil, up to the amount of US$ 1 billion
every three months, will be used mainly to purchase humanitarian supplies
for the civilian Iraqi population. The supplies include food, medicines
and
other health supplies to be distributed under the monitoring of the United
Nations.

Earlier, the Secretary-General's Spokesman, Sylvana Foa told UN
correspondents
that the Secretary-General had submitted his final report to the Security
Council expressing satisfaction with the progress made so far.

The Secretary-General, according to the Spokesman, stated in the report
that "he was satisfied that all activities necessary to ensure the
effective implementation of resolution 986 of the Security Council have
been satisfactorily concluded," adding that "the pricing mechanisms had
been approved, the metering stations had been tested, the oil monitors and
customs inspectors had been deployed".

She cited the Secretary-General as noting that the progress thus far was a
victory for the poorest of the poor of Iraq, for the women, the children,
the sick and the disabled. The Secretary-General expressed the hope that
the humanitarian dimension will always prevail in the work of the United
Nations, the Spokesman added.
                    -----------------------------------
UN Secretary-General Boutros Boutros-Ghali says the situation in
Tajikistan
has deteriorated in the last three months.

In his report to the Security Council on the situation in Tajikistan, Dr.
Boutros-Ghali said the ceasefire had been frequently violated by both
sides,
although they observed it from 16 September to 1 December in the most
volatile part of the country, the Karategin Valley. He said the
developments,
which contradict the stated intentions of the Tajik parties to resolve the
conflict through political means, raised serious questions regarding their
sincerity and intentions.

The Secretary-General appealed to the Tajik parties to cease hostilities
immediately and to comply strictly with their obligations under the
ceasefire agreement.

"Regrettably, the activities of UN Mission of Observers in Tajikistan
(UNMOT) have been impeded by threats to the security of its personnel and
by restrictions on the freedom of movement of the military observers. I
call upon both sides to remove these obstacles and to create the
conditions
necessary for the effective functioning of UNMOT," the Secretary-General
stated.
                    -----------------------------------
The prospects for improved confidence among the local Serb population was
further harmed by the Government's lack of progress in investigating and
resolving incidents of human rights violations that occurred in 1995,
according to UN Secretary-General Boutros Boutros- Ghali.

In his report on the situation of human rights in Croatia, Dr. Boutros-
Ghali says a legitimate question may be raised as to whether Croatian
Serbs
in the region would be able to re-establish the conditions of normal life
in the near future.

He said little progress had been noted on the issue of the return of
Croatian Serb refugees. "Although the normalisation agreement between
Croatia and the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia addresses this subject in a
constructive way, it has not yet resulted in a material increase in the
number of returns," the Secretary-General said.

On the issue of the International Tribunal, Dr. Boutros-Ghali said there
remained strong grounds for concern that the Government of Croatia was
withholding its full cooperation, principally by failing to ensure the
apprehension of indicted war-crime suspects believed to be in areas under
its control.

He said the Office of the Prosecutor had advised that it has not been able
to find evidence of any serious attempt by the Croatian authorities to
investigate grave allegations made about the conduct of Croatian soldiers
and civilians during the 1995 military operations in Krajina and Western
Slavonia.
                    -----------------------------------
The Fourth Review Conference of States Parties to the Convention on the
Prohibition of the Development, Production, and Stockpiling of
Bacteriological
(Biological) and Toxin Weapons and on their Destruction, (Biological
Weapons Convention), concluded its two-week session on Friday, approving a
Final Declaration that expressed support for intensified work by an ad hoc
group attempting to design a verification protocol for the international
treaty.

The Conference expressed hope that the group, which began work in 1994,
would reach agreement on a draft protocol to be considered by a special
conference of States Parties to the Convention as soon as possible, and
before the Fifth Review Conference, which was scheduled for not later than
2001.

The Final Declaration also stated that countries having ratified the
treaty
consider that it applies to all developments in the field of biology and
biotechnology. Concern had been expressed that it be understood that the
treaty applied to biological advances that have occurred since the
document
entered into force in 1975.
                    -----------------------------------
The General Assembly would appropriate and apportion almost $242 million
to
maintain three peace-keeping missions in the former Yugoslavia for the
first half of 1997, if it adopts three draft resolutions approved by the
Fifth Committee (Administrative and Budgetary).

The sum would be an addition to the $242.5 million in total appropriations
granted last June to those operations for the period from July to
December.
The missions are the United Nations Transitional Administration for
Eastern
Slavonia, Baranja and Western Sirmium (UNTAES), United Nations Mission in
Bosnia and Herzegovina (UNMIBH) and the United Nations Preventive
Deployment Force (UNPREDEP). The Assembly would appropriate $140.5 for
UNTAES, $75.6 for UNMIBH, and $25.4 million for UNPREDEP.
                    -----------------------------------
Representatives of law enforcement agencies in 31 countries, insurance and
car manufacturers ended a two-day United Nations International Conference
on Illicit Trafficking in Stolen Vehicles in Warsaw. Calling for new
measures to combat the growing transnational trade in stolen vehicles, the
Conference endorsed a model treaty intended to standardise how States deal
with transborder theft and resale of cars, vans, motorcycles and other
vehicles.

The treaty would put an end to prevailing red tape and recognised
injustices in the dealings of police, customs officials and other
authorities confronted with the task of seizing and returning vehicles
stolen in other countries or continents. It sets a new standard for
putting
breaks on what has become a high-profit business for organised crime
throughout the world. Under the model treaty, States would clarify what
constitutes theft or embezzlement of a vehicle.

They would harmonise the types of data maintained on such cases, as well
as
the procedures for handling them. Parties to the treaty would take account
of the difficulties faced by innocent owners seeking the return of motor
vehicles which might end up on the other side of the world.
                    -----------------------------------
The World Heritage Committee has added 37 new names to the UN Educational,
Scientific and Cultural Organisation's (UNESCO) list of protected natural
and cultural sites, bringing to 506 the number of places of such
outstanding
interest that they should be preserved as the heritage of all mankind.

Meeting from 2 to 7 December in Merida, Mexico for its 20th session, the
Committee inscribed five natural, 30 cultural sites and two mixed sites.
Like other sites already on the World Heritage list, they are considered
to
be of outstanding universal value. On the list for the first time with
sites are Armenia, Austria and Belize. The list now includes sites in 107
countries throughout the world.
                    -----------------------------------
Representatives from 150 governments on Monday began a meeting to prepare
for the final phase of talks on how developed countries would cut their
greenhouse gas emissions after the year 2000, under the United Nations
Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC).

As the work on analysing the various possible options draws to a close,
negotiators would start discussing the specific elements to be included in
a future protocol or another legal instrument under the Climate Change
Convention.

The resulting text was to be adopted in December 1997 in Kyoto, Japan.
While the timetable for preparing a negotiating text was still uncertain,
in their Geneva Declaration last July, ministers instructed their
representatives to accelerate negotiations on the texts of a legally-
binding protocol or another legal instrument to be completed in due time
for adoption at the session of the Conference of the Parties to the
Climate
Change Convention next year in Kyoto.
-
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
_For information purposes only - - not an official record_
>From the United Nations home page at http://www.un.org, 

In > Peter k Chong >
writes:

[information about Magyar-Indo/European cognates and Hungarian coming
from Sumerian]

Fascinating theory.  I also noticed some of those cognates, such as
Hungarian "ki" for "who", "tiz" for "ten", etc.   I think some of your
examples are very far-fetched, though, such as "sziv" for "suck" and
"meleg" for "volcano".

I read that there are two or three very small (population) languages
extant today which are in the same sub-family of FU as Hungarian:  one
of them has the name "Chanty", I think.   Interesting:  it seems to
evoke "chant", French for "sing"!    This language is supposedly spoken
in the far northern tundra of Russia.

During my time spent around Hungarians I noticed many cognates.
However, like I said, the most striking thing was the regularity and
conventionality (to a Westerner schooled in Romance languages) of its
grammar.

Whatever the origins of the Magyars, they appeared for the first time
in central Europe sometime during the early Middle Ages, I think.
They were apparently an Asian people who looked more like Central Asian
nomadic peoples (the Uzbeks, Mongols, etc.) but after centuries of
admixture with Germanic/Slavic peoples, they acquired the physical
features of those Europeans, so that now they are indistinguishable
from those in surrounding countries who speak IE languages.

I would think the same thing happened with the Japanese.   Somewhere I
read that the Japanese language is thought to be related to the Altaic
languages (Turkish).   Maybe at some time in the distant past, the
whole of North Asia was sparsely settled by these Altaic peoples, and
they settled the Japanese islands.   Then, over thousands of years of
invasions by people from the Asian mainland (Chung Kuo, etc.) they
gradually acquired some of the physical features of those peoples.

I am by no means an expert on these things (obviously) but your theory
of the Hungarians coming from Sumerians is very interesting, could you
please explain more of it -- factors which you think make this theory
plausible.

Thanks!
Tony

some brief comments on the turkish:

 sakIn (should be sakin - sa:kin), sahra, tekmil, kuvvet (but turkish kol -
qol -, arm, might be relevant) ciltlemek (from cilt - jild) are loanwords
from arabic huysuzluk (from huy, xu:y), nam are loanwords from persian.
ki (?exactly which language / dialect?) should be kim.
for ol- (to become, be) most turkic languages have bol-
for o"ksu"rmek (to cough), note o"g~u"rmek (to retch, vomit) which is more
relevant. for s^olpan most turkic languages (for example old turkish) have
c^olpan (s^ < c^ being typically qIrgIz). for elma (apple) the vowel harmonic
alma also exists.

At 09:13 PM 12/10/96 -0500, Peter Soltesz wrote:
>On Tue, 10 Dec 1996, Eva S. Balogh wrote:
><SNIP>
>>         Apology? You must be kidding.
>>
>>         Eva Balogh
>>
>NO I am not. How would you feel if someone sent your private mail to the
>public forum? Regardless of how you feel about him personally, the issue
>is that you violated a basic trust and understanding that goes along with
>private mail.
>Peter

        I had enough of your preaching. If I say to somebody that he is a
piece of garbage privately I am also quite ready to tell the whole world
that he is a piece of garbage. On the Forum somebody whom I considered then
a piece of garbage and who since turned out to be even a bigger piece of
garbage than I thought published my private letter to him in which I said in
no uncertain terms that he is the biggest piece of garbage I have ever
encountered. Somebody chastised him for it and although I appreciated the
gesture it really didn't bother me that he made my comment public. It would
be, of course, an entirely different matter if I wrote about a third person
and the addressee made such a letter either public or sent a copy of it to
the person in question.

        I am also quite ready to tell the whole world that I consider Mr.
Lippai a piece of garbage and I am ashamed that he is a Hungarian.

        Eva Balogh

>On Mon, 9 Dec 1996, Andy Kozma wrote:
><SNIP>
>> >definitly not by your methods.us poor canadians realy do not need your
ideas.
>> andy.
>There you go again Andy! I guess if does not mean anything to you then it
>should not to me either. Yet it does. I like to listen to RCI and so do
>many others. If you do not want to be helpful in solving this problem like
>some others like Aniko (who behaved quite civil and actually sent info
>about where to send information). So Andy You you obviously got up on the
>wrong side of the bed again! Go back to sleep Please!.
>
>Perhaps one day you will learn what it means to help someone that is
>trying to help you (perhaps not you personally).
>Peter
>
>here you go peter.in todys paper the deputie prime minister somehow assured
you, not to worry about cbc short wave.it most probably will stay alive,with
governement help.tax payers monny.now do you feel any better?thanks anyway
for your worries i suppose the canadian governement read your letter,and
wanted you to concentrate on your other world saving events.
andy.
ps now i wqill sleep much better knowing this terrible sin past.rip.

December 9, 1996

HUNGARIAN AMERICAN COALITION Holds Sixth Annual Meeting
White House Briefing, Mikulas Dinner Precede Annual Event

The Hungarian American Coalition (Coalition) elected its Officers
and Board at the Coalition/s sixth Annual Meeting, held Saturday,
December 7, at the Kossuth House in Washington, DC.

The Coalition elected the following officers:
Rev. Imre Bertalan, Chairman;  Edith Lauer, President;
Vice Presidents Gabor Bodnar, Rev. Istvan Mustos, and
Dr. Balazs Somogyi.
Also elected were Secretary, Julius Varallyay;
and Treasurer, Zsolt Szekeres.

Of the Coalition/s 29 Board Members, 21 attended the Annual Meeting
representing organizations from as far away as Denver,
Seattle and Hawaii.  Board Members reelected Rev. Imre Bertalan
and Paul Fekete to three-year terms as individual members.

Following the Annual Meeting, the new Board considered several
resolutions concerning the Coalition/s future projects.
Among them, the Coalition Board approved funding for the
Seventh Annual Human Rights Workshop which is co-sponsored
by the Hungarian Communion of Friends and the Hungarian Human
Rights Foundation, as well as the continuation of the White House
Internship Program by Ameritech.  In addition, the Coalition expressed
its continuing commitment to exploring and broadening areas of
cooperation with fellow Hungarian American organizations.  The board
unanimously accepted new members, including the time honored
American Hungarian Federation.

This weekend/s Coalition-sponsored activities began Friday afternoon,
at a White House Briefing organized especially for Coalition Members.
Speakers were: Marilyn diGiaccobe, Associate Director,
Office of Public Liaison; Daniel Fried, Special Assistant to the President
and Senior Director, Central and Eastern Europe, National Security
Council;
Rudolph Perina, Senior Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for European
and Canadian Affairs, Department of State; and Donald Herr, NATO Policy
Office, Department of Defense.
_______________________________________________________
For more information please contact the Hungarian American Coalition/s
Washington office: 818 Connecticut Ave, NW, Ste 850
Washington, DC 20006, USA; Contact: Klary Hefty
phone (202) 296-9505, fax (202) 775-5175.

Page - 2
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
-
 -------

Following each speaker/s formal presentation, Coalition members put
questions to the Administration officials.  Topics discussed included the
Administration/s approach to collective human rights for national minorities;
the urgent need for Romania to return church properties which had been
confiscated by the communists; requirements for an accelerated entry of
Hungary into NATO; and ways to effectively include the input of Hungarian
American organizations into U.S.-sponsored aid projects to Hungary.

At the conclusion Mrs. Lauer expressed the appreciation of the Coalition
for the continued access and good working relationship which continues
to develop between the White House and the Coalition.

Peter Ujvagi recalled President Clinton/s understanding and immediate
response to the significance of the 40th anniversary of the Hungarian
Revolution of 1956.

As in previous years, the 1996 Coalition/s Annual Meeting coincided
with the Coalition/s traditional Mikulas Dinner.  This year, the festive
and elegant dinner was hosted at the German Embassy House,
where the 74 dinner guests were greeted by the Count Nikolaus
Lambsdorff from the German Embassy.  The dinner guests included
H.E. Ambassador Dr. Gyorgy Banlaki, Hungarian ambassador to the
United States; Ms. Zsofia Trombitas, Secretary for Cultural and
Educational Affairs, the Embassy of Hungary; Ms. Marilyn diGiaccobe,
Associate Director, Office of Public Liaison, the White House;
Honorary Consuls of the Republic of Hungary Laszlo Bojtos,
Mrs. Emese Komjathy-Pring; Eugene Megyesy, Jr.; and
Mrs. Helen Szablya.

Also present were, Lynn Lambert, Deputy Chief of Mission Designate
to the U.S. Embassy in Budapest; Michael Michalak, Deputy Assistant,
Democracy Program for Eastern Europe, Department of State; and
representatives of the Polish American Congress,
Mr. and Mrs. Casimir and from the Armenian Assembly of America,
Mr. and Mrs. Timothy Jemal.
===

At 08:43 PM 12/10/96 GMT, Sam Stowe wrote:

>Because most Americans, unless they are Hungarian descent, know nothing
>about Hungary. Few of my fellow countrymen, I'm afraid, bother to learn
>much about Hungary. That's their loss. Most Americans aren't in any
>position to offer up an informed opinion about Hungarian history and
>politics.

        Unfortunately, this is very much true not only about Americans but
also about Canadians.

>Strange how I seem to be the first non-Magyar whom you've run
>across in 36 years (down from the four decades you were claiming in
>earlier posts) who knew anything about Hungary.

        The problem is that Mr. Lippai himself doesn't know any Hungarian
history. He keeps repeating his love of his country and if anyone dares to
make any observations which he feels are not entirely complimentary then you
are anti-Hungarian piece of garbage.

>The Hungarian people probably won't suffer as much in the future as they
>have during this century. That's partly the result of a vastly improved
>geopolitical situation in their neck of the woods.

        I think you are right. You read the New York Times too and surely
you saw the articles on the expansion on NATO in the last two issues.

>But I also think that
>they've learned to weigh the actions of would-be leaders like you against
>their words. That judicious approach to sorting out political claims means
>you and the rest of your ultranationalist buddies will spend most of your
>waking hours pitching peanuts to the pigeons along the Korszo and babbling
>about how the rest of the world seems to have gone crazy except for
>yourselves.

        Well, I am less optimistic when it comes to judicious weighing of
anything. Support for NATO is low in Hungary, much lower than in Poland or
the Czech Republic. Three days ago there was an article about the GIs in
Taszar and a "genius," a lawyer from Kaposvar, had to say the following
stupidity:

>"The American soldiers are involved in peacekeeping; they're different from
the Russian soldiers we used to have," said Sandor Reczey, a lawyer in
Kaposvar. "But what benefit would Hungary have from NATO? You need the
military when we have war. And we don't want war, we want peace."

        What wonderful logic, what wisdom! Spread on the pages of the New
York Times.

        Eva Balogh

At 09:53 PM 12/10/96 GMT, Sam wrote:
>To those of you still laboring under any illusions about the "student
>democracy" movement in Serbia, I commend to your attention a front page
>story by Chris Hedges in the Dec. 10 edition of the New York Times. The
>story, "Fierce Serb Nationalism Pervades Student Foes of Belgrade Leader"
>is available on the Times webserver.

        I read it too with growing concern, although it seems that only part
of the demonstrators belong to this ultra-nationalist group. Absolutely
frightening.

        Eva Balogh

At 12:42 PM 12/11/96 +0100, Magda Zimanyi wrote:

>Really, the movement which you call "populist movement" had a literary
>magazine called "Kelet ne'pe". The editor of "Kelet ne'pe" was
>Zsigmond Moricz.
>
>I don't think "populist movement"  is a very good expression for the
>group which was called in Hungarian "ne'pi iro'k". IMHO, "populist"
>has a somewhat different connotation in the English language as
>"ne'pi" has in Hungarian. And IMHO the movement of "ne'pi iro'k" could
>be better characterized by saying that they were mostly concerned with
>the social problems of the Hungarian peasants and villages and the
>effects of those problems on Hungarian social and political life. IMHO
>only a small part of the group -- the group was by no means
>homogeneous -- thought that

        You are right about "populist" not being the same as "ne'pi."
Perhaps the best way to describe the real meaning is to use the Russian
word: "narodnik." Those who have studied Russian history at least would have
a fair idea what we are talking about.

        And yes, you are right the group was not homogeneous. Some were
outright left-wingers, who ended up to be willing stool pigeons of the
communist party while being active in the peasant party after 1945 (Ferenc
Erdelyi, for example). And some were extreme rightists and admirers of Hitler.

>Of course some of them were supporters of the so-called "harmadik ut"
>("third way"), however, this was not a specific Hungarian invention
>either. Its first representative was the German professor Wilhelm
>Roepke -- who had to emigrate from Hitler's Germany -- and who had
>great influence on some Hungarian intellectuals.

        That is also true, but one of the most important writers, La'szlo'
Ne'meth, was certainly one of the Hungarian propagators of the third-road
concept, which in the Hungarian context meant: neither Soviet socialism nor
western capitalism, but something in between. (And, by the way, I just read
something Laszlo Nemeth wrote during the revolution of 1956 which struck me
as quite incredible. I will share his golden thoughts on Hungarian history
with the readers of this list soon.)

        When it comes to the third-road concept, let me now tell what my
first reaction was when I read the motto at the beginning of the FIDESZ
paper: "Ket pogany kozt egy hazaert." Oh, my God--said I--not this
ridiculous and dangerous third-road concept again cropping up which even in
the thirties was inapplicable. Today, it is outright dead end: Hungary
cannot remain neutral and Hungary cannot chose a different road from the
western market economy. Any such attempt would be suicidal. So, if FIDESZ is
in any way advocating such course they are not my party!

>Interestingly enough when SzDSz listed their political ancestors in
>their '89 programme, they listed the group of "ne'pi iro'k" among
>them, too, naming Zoltan Szabo and Istvan Bibo as representatives of
>that movement they held in high esteem.

        Maybe one day I will say something about Istvan Bibo whom I know
less than I should. Moreover, I don't have his three-volume works on hand.
Only a one-volume one consisting only a few of his more important writings.
I read the first couple of pieces and I found them politically extremely
naive. As far as Zoltan Szabo is concerned I read only a few of his articles
here and there in emigre publications--Uj Latohatar, Irodalmi Ujsag--but I
really don't know enough about him to guess what the SZDSZ found in him
attractive politically.

>You did not mention the fact that the expression "Kelet ne'pe"  was
>not coined by the group of "ne'pi iro'k". They borrowed it from Count
>Istvan Szechenyi (died in 1860), the "greatest Hungarian", who
>published a political pamphlet in 1841 by that title.
>It is possible that FIDESz had Count Szechenyi in mind in the first
>place when they referred to Hungarians as "Kelet ne'pe".
>

        Of course, you are right about that. It was indeed but just because
Istvan Szechenyi coined the phrase: Kelet ne'pe, we don't have to fall on
our faces and repeat it right and left, especially when it may not be
judicious to do so.


        Eva Balogh

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(ggztgr)

>
> On Tue, 10 Dec 1996, Eva S. Balogh wrote:
> <SNIP>
> >         Apology? You must be kidding.
> >
> >         Eva Balogh
> >
> NO I am not. How would you feel if someone sent your private mail to the
> public forum? Regardless of how you feel about him personally, the issue
> is that you violated a basic trust and understanding that goes along with
> private mail.
> Peter


The point is, that the non-too-couragous but Most Hungarian
correspondent did not want to go as far in nastiness
in public, so he called Eva B. names in private.
The post office not allowed to open private mail,
but an individual owns his/her mail and may do anything
with it.

At 09:24 PM 12/31/96 +0200, Roman Kanala wrote:
>Dear colleagues and friends,
>
>It's with a grief in the heart that I recommend you the
>following reading:
>
>Los Angeles Times, 31 Dec 96
>COLUMN ONE
>The State as Stage Manager
>
>by DEAN E. MURPHY, Times Staff Writer
>
>This is a very good resume of the year 1996 in the Slovak
>culture and also the other major events are mentioned.
>
>The URL is http://www.latimes.com/HOME/NEWS/FRONT/t000114174.html
>
>I wish you all a New Year that will be better than that.

        I am going to read it as soon as I get on the Net. Meanwhile, I
would like to call the attention to two articles on Hungary and Nato: one
appeared in yesterday's Wall Street Journal and the other two days ago in
the New York Times. Both are quite positive.

        Eva Balogh

In article >, Istvan Lippai
> writes:

>Subject:       Re: To everybody
>From:  Istvan Lippai >
>Date:  Wed, 11 Dec 1996 00:25:09 UT
>
>Mr. Stowe,
>
>How long do you think the Hungarians on this list will put up with your
>arrogant and conceited put downs.

This is a question, Lippai ur. It needs a question mark. The Hungarians on
this list accepted me as a full-fledged member long ago. The jury is still
out on you, although I just looked out the window and darned if it doesn't
look like they're constructing a gallows on the court house lawn.

>
>You are not as smart as you first appeared to be.  You cannot count
anything
>past the fingers on your hands and feet.  Here it is:
>
>1. I came to the United States in 1957.  That is 40 years in America.
>2.      I became a United States citizen in 1963.  That is 36 years as a
>United
>States citizen.
>
>If this is any of your business.

Let's take it a step further, shall we? What did you do during the
forradalom, daddy? We have folks on this list who actually fought in '56
against the red, Durant-like fraternal socialist watchsnatchers. You run
your mouth so much about it, so put up or shut up -- where were you in 56?
Either give us details or admit that you ran like the scalded dog you are.

>
>I will challenge unfounded lies and accusations against Hungary.  I am
>especially concerned about how your lies may affect our younger people.
>Knowing about our history does not mean that you have any compassion for
us.
>You seem to know all the negative (and sometimes very sad) events in our
>history.

I have a lot of compassion for the Hungarian people. I also tell the
truth. You haven't been able to point to anything yet where I have not
told the truth. You, on the other hand, seek to minimize at every
opportunity the tragedies which have befallen Hungary this century. That's
because those tragedies arose in large part from the policies set by
governments which shared your political philosophy. Addressing them
honestly means you'd have to submit your ideology to the measure of
historical experience. Since you are a profoundly dishonest man
intellectually, that's not likely to happen.

>
>A former communist economist (recently converted to the free enterprise
>system) came to UC Boulder two years ago.  He listed the major reasons
for
>the
>collapse of the Soviet empire:
>
>1.      The Soviet economy got ruined by the arms race with the United
>States.
>
>2.  The war in Vietnam placed a very heavy economic burden on the Soviet
>economy.
>
>He babbled some other reasons that I can no longer recall.
>
>It was the hard work of American taxpayers and the servicemen in Vietnam
that
>crushed the "Evil Empire".

Absolute, unmitigated horse poop. Command economies don't work in the long
run and you can only run a sociopolitical system grounded in fantasy for
so long before it rots before your very eyes. You give Marxism-Leninism
far more credit as a sociopolitical organizing principle than it deserves.
What are you, some kind of commie yourself? Interesting language about the
red economist "converting" to free-market capitalism, though. It shows the
confusion of theological principle with economic theorizing in your mind.
You have a compulsive need to believe in something and belong to a herd,
don't you?

>
>Since you presume to question my background, I have some questions for
you:
>
>1.      Did you ever serve in the United States armed forces?
>
>2.      If you served, WHEN and WHAT branch of service?
>
>3.      If not WHY NOT?

I didn't serve in the U.S. Armed Forces because by the time I graduated
from high school in 1979, the draft was long over. (I registered for
Selective Service, though.) My grandfather was a Marine Corps aviator and
drill instructor and I had uncles on both sides of the family who fought
in the 'Nam. Had a national emergency popped up, I'd have volunteered for
service. I'm still young enough that I would today if we had another Pearl
Harbor. But they seemed to get through Grenada just fine without me.
Sam Stowe
>
>Lippai Istvan
>
>



"I need not tell you that true patriotism sometimes requires
of me to act contrary at one period to that which it does at
another, and the motive that impels them -- the desire to do
right -- is precisely the same..."
-- Gen Robert E.Lee in an October, 1865, personal letter to
Gen. P.G.T. Beauregard.

At 02:03 PM 12/10/96 -0400, Johanna wrote:

>BTW, would he have likely traveled to England, then, if he was a favorite of
>Queen Victoria's? If he was fluent in English, I could imagine that he would
>have cut quite an exotic figure at the English court, and he would have
>regaled the courtiers and the Queen, I am sure, with stories of his adventures
.

        Yes, he traveled to England quite often and paid several visits to
Buckingham Palace. (Unfortunately, I don't know where I read this exactly
but I have a faint recollection that it was not in a Hungarian publication
but in English, perhaps about Queen Victoria.)

>What is the title of his autobiography in Hungarian?

I think: Ku"zdelmeim. However, from my biographical dictionary it seems that
the English edition came out a year earlier (1904) than the Hungarian one
(1905). He wrote several "popular works," like Va'ndorla'saim e's
e'lme'nyeim Persia'ban (1864); Ko:ze'pa'zsiai utaza's (1865); The Travels of
Sidi Ali Reis (London, 1899); Dervisruha'ban Ko:ze'p-A'zsia'n a't (1966).

        By the way, his son, Rusztem, was a famous liberal lawyer, and
Hungarian ambassador to the new democratic Hungary in Washington (September
1947 to March 1948. Died in New York in December 1948. He defended people
like Rakosi in 1935. Several of his books on Hungary is available in
English: The Hungarian Problem (New York, 1942) and Hungary--To Be or Not to
Be (New York, 1946).

        Eva Balogh

At 02:28 PM 12/10/96 -0500, Janos Zsargo wrote:
>S.Stowe wrote to I.Lippai:
>
>>Some of those teeming millions helped precipitate the First World War
>>through their arrogant insistence on forcing minorities within their
>>borders to culturally assimilate. Unfortunately for the rest, the Allies
>>undertook a decidely benighted and punitive post-war approach to
>>reconstructing Hungary. The rest the Hungarians did to themselves through
>>a spectacular series of backing the wrong horse, from Bela Kun to Miklos
>>Kallay, domestically and geopolitically. Gee, here's another interesting
>>parallel between you and Joe Szalai -- I have also had occasion to remind
>>him, as I will now remind you, that actions have consequences. The proper
>>question in this context should be: Why do we think we're exempt from the
>>rules of cause and effect which govern every other nation's history?
>
>Here we are again! The same old Sam's theory. How many times do I have to
>ask the same questions, i.e so what the hungarian politicians should have
>done to AVOID those consequences (i.e Trianon, German occupation,
>Russian occupation)?

        I think that it is not quite accurate to say that nothing could have
been done to avoid the dismemberment of Hungary in 1918-1919. Many, many
things could have been done differently which *may have* (please note, that
I am underlying these two words) resulted in a different outcome. An earlier
"compromise" with Vienna could have accelerated Hungarian economic
development and with that the natural assimilation could have begun earlier
(see other, better developed countries in western Europe). Under natural
assimilation I mean the kind which is inevitable with urbanization and
greater mobility. There were several possibilities for such compromise but
none were taken. Sam Stowe in another post talks about Lajos Kossuth--I'm
afraid that I share his antipathy to the kind of future he envisaged for
Hungary and his continued opposition to the Ausgleich (whose architect was
Ferenc Deak, a great statesman) did harm to Hungary after 1867. The
nationality laws of Jozsef Eotvos were the right step in the right direction
but they existed mostly on paper. And finally, one didn't have to start the
First World War--which, we all inclined to forget, was begun by
Austria-Hungary. Hungary, according to the laws, had the right to say no to
Vienna when it came to declaration of war and Istvan Tisza held out for two
weeks.

        Eva Balogh

May I call the attention of the readers of HUNGARY to a very recent
publication that contains, among very many other things, six poems by
Balassi in English translation:

                        Makkai, Adam, ed.
                        In Quest of the Miracle Stag:
                        The Poetry of Hungary
                        Am Anthology of Hungarian Poetry from the 13th
                        Century to the Present, In English translation

Distributed by the University of Illinois Press. The translations are as
close as possible to the original Hungarian for contents, rhyme and
rhythm(!!!). I will say no more, judge for yourself...  Greetings, R

>At 02:28 AM 12/10/96 -0800, Norma wrote:
>
>>That is, I'm sorry to have to admit that I want
>>to be reassured that it is not one of Balassi's love poems but instead
>>one of his religious ones. For those who don't know, in the 16/17th
>>centuries of the Renaissance and Baroque periods the two kinds of poetry
>>were much closer than we moderns would expect.
>>
>>
>>Felseges uristen!  es kemeny ostorod,
>>Kivel tagaimat
>>Buneimert nekem igen ostorozod
>
>        You can be assured that it is a religious poem and therefore in the
>first line (title) instead of "you," or "You," maybe you should use "Thy."
>
>"Heavenly Father! and Thy harsh whip,
>With which Thy severely flog my limbs for my sins"
>
>        Not very elegant but this is the best I can do. Perhaps Gabor
>Fencsik can be more eloquent.
>
>        By the way, you are right. Balassi was a great poet and it is too
>bad that his poems are not available even in inferior translations.
>
>        Eva Balogh


Suggestion for line 2 of E.B.'s translation:

With which Thou severely floggest my limbs for my sins

or

With which Thou severely doest flog my limbs for my sins


Louis Elteto

In article >, Istvan Lippai
> writes:

>Subject:       Re: To everybody
>From:  Istvan Lippai >
>Date:  Tue, 10 Dec 1996 22:17:00 UT
>
>Janos,
>
>You do not need to explain anything to this man.  He would condemn you
(born
>in 1966) for some mistakes that some Hungarian leaders may have long
before
>you were born.

Janos and I have talked about these issues before. Unfortunately, someone
had filled the young man's head with Lippai-like ultranationalist crap
when he was a lad. But Janos seems to do okay weening himself from the
hateful teat, as long as he's living and studying here in the States.

>
>If anything, Hungarians stand out for their acceptance of and compassion
for
>others.  We could never treat our adversaries with the brutality that our
>people had to endure.

This is outright bullshit. The hundreds of thousands of Hungarian Jews
rounded up and shipped off to their deaths in WWII by ultranationalist
goons like Lippai bear eloquent testimony to the virulent hatred of his
kind.

>
>I have lived with Americans for years.  The Americans that know about us,
>like
>us.  I and about 40 thousand Hungarians were treated with incredible
>hospitality when we came here.  It is still a good country to live in.
We
>are
>having a wonderful sunny day in Colorado.  There is a local saying "It is
a
>privilege to live in Colorado".  Hope you come and visit us, Janos.

I lived in Wyoming for years and know Colorado intimately. The only place
you may find Lippai ur's "local saying" is in Chamber of Commerce
brochures and state travel and tourism literature. The place is
overpopulated, overdeveloped and overrepresented in its population by gun
nuts and Christian Coalition fanatics.

>
>This Stowe guy, tries to put us down and make us feel ashamed of our
>heritage.
> I am proud of my heritage, especially young Hungarians like you.

You are extremely selective about what you remember in your heritage and
what you won't. That's understandable, because the last time your kind ran
Hungary, from 1920 to 1945, you damn near destroyed the country. The bulk
of your countrymen and countrywomen have much better, much clearer
recollections of what their historical heritage entails. That's why you
get to end your life in exile hanging around bowling alleys and working
the John Birch Society booth at the flea market.

>
>He does not speak for the Americans I know and respect. .  He is nobody.

I must be somebody, because you're wasting your time responding to me. Do
the Americans you claim to know and respect have any inkling of the
profound depth of your arrogance and homicidal rage? You are a man in
search of an assault rifle and a water tower.
>
>Istvan



"I need not tell you that true patriotism sometimes requires
of me to act contrary at one period to that which it does at
another, and the motive that impels them -- the desire to do
right -- is precisely the same..."
-- Gen Robert E.Lee in an October, 1865, personal letter to
Gen. P.G.T. Beauregard.

I'm sorry I misspelled a name: not Ferenc Erdelyi but Ferenc Erdei
was the crypto-communist.

        Eva Balogh

REQUIEM A HOSOKERT

A Honved Hagyomanyorzo Egyesulet, a Hadtorteneti Muzeum, a Budapesti
Helyorseg Parancsnoksaga es a Doni Szovetseg tiszetelettel es szeretettel
hivja a kedves hiveket, kiemelten az elhunyt bajtarsak hozzatartozoit es
baratait a

DON MELLETT ELESETTEK REQUIEMJERE

januar 13-an 10 orakor a budavari Matyas Templomba.

A szentmiset Ladocsi Gaspar tabori puspok celebralja a haboruban reszt vett,
illetve a jelenleg szolgalo tabori lelkeszekkel. Szentbeszedet mond Nadasy
Alfonz OSB. A szentmiset kovetoen koszoruzas lesz a Hadtorteneti Muzeum
udvaran. Az elhunyt katonak emlekere kegyelettel gyertyat gyujtunk.

On Tue, 10 Dec 1996, Eva S. Balogh wrote:

> Dear Magda Zimanyi and readers of this list:
>
>         I followed Magda's suggestion and downloaded the FIDESZ (Young
> Democrats) program which is described by its authors as the "basis of
> discussion."
>         (2). "A magyarsa'g: Kelet ne'pe. Magyarorsza'g to:rte'nelme azonban
> ezer e've a nyugati kereszte'ny mu"veltse'g mora'lis e's kultu'ra'lis
> e'rte'kein alapulo' euro'pai civiliza'cio re'sze," says Viktor Orba'n.
>
>         I must admit I would have been happier if the sentence, "A
> magyarsa'g: Kelet ne'pe" [The Hungarians are people of the East] were left
> out. I have two reasons for wishing so: (a) it makes the Hungarians appear
> to be radically different from their neighbors, and (b) it reminds me of the
> populist movement of the thirties. [...]
> As for the
> populism of the 1930s I have high aversion to the whole movement and a group
> of populist writers actually established a literary magazine called "Kelet
> ne'pe." All my objections to the term applies to the ideas of the populist
> movement which characterized us as somewhat different from our neighbors and
> therefore our political and economic answers must also be different,
> because, after all, we are "Kelet ne'pe." The whole notion should not be
> part of our modern political vocabulary.

Really, the movement which you call "populist movement" had a literary
magazine called "Kelet ne'pe". The editor of "Kelet ne'pe" was
Zsigmond Moricz.

I don't think "populist movement"  is a very good expression for the
group which was called in Hungarian "ne'pi iro'k". IMHO, "populist"
has a somewhat different connotation in the English language as
"ne'pi" has in Hungarian. And IMHO the movement of "ne'pi iro'k" could
be better characterized by saying that they were mostly concerned with
the social problems of the Hungarian peasants and villages and the
effects of those problems on Hungarian social and political life. IMHO
only a small part of the group -- the group was by no means
homogeneous -- thought that

> therefore our political and economic answers must also be different,
> because, after all, we are "Kelet ne'pe."

Of course some of them were supporters of the so-called "harmadik ut"
("third way"), however, this was not a specific Hungarian invention
either. Its first representative was the German professor Wilhelm
Roepke -- who had to emigrate from Hitler's Germany -- and who had
great influence on some Hungarian intellectuals.

Interestingly enough when SzDSz listed their political ancestors in
their '89 programme, they listed the group of "ne'pi iro'k" among
them, too, naming Zoltan Szabo and Istvan Bibo as representatives of
that movement they held in high esteem.

You did not mention the fact that the expression "Kelet ne'pe"  was
not coined by the group of "ne'pi iro'k". They borrowed it from Count
Istvan Szechenyi (died in 1860), the "greatest Hungarian", who
published a political pamphlet in 1841 by that title.

It is possible that FIDESz had Count Szechenyi in mind in the first
place when they referred to Hungarians as "Kelet ne'pe".

Best regards

 Magdolna Zimanyi
 KFKI Research Institute for Particle  Phone: +36-1-395-9151
 and Nuclear Physics                   FAX:   +36-1-395-9242
 Computer Networking Center            E-mail: 
   !! Phone and FAX number changed on 7 December '96 !!
 H-1525 Budapest 114, POB. 49, Hungary URL: http://www.kfki.hu/~mzimanyi
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------

Magdolna Zimanyi > wrote on Tue Dec 10 12:42:49 EST
1996:
>
>Dear Hungary list,
>
>as there was a rather lengthy discussion concerning FIDESz on this
>list some weeks ago probably some of you, who can read Hungarian, will
>be interested in the material which was discussed last Saturday in a
>Budapest conference jointly organized by FIDESz and the Hungarian
>Bishop's Conference. The speakers were among others Endre Gyulay, the
>archbishop of Szeged-Csanad (Southern Hungary) and Viktor Orban,
>president of FIDESz. There are two underlying documents, both of them
>can be found on the Web.
>
>The document produced by FIDESz has the title
>
>"Polgari Magyarorszagert" ("For a civil Hungary"), URL:
>
>http://www.fidesz.hu/magunk2.html
>
>(As I have written in a former letter, FIDESz has a homepage.)
>
>The document produced by the Hungarian Bishop's Conference has the
>title
>
>"Igazsagosabb es testveriesebb vilagot!" ("For a more just and
>fraternal world"), URL:
>
>http://www.theol.u-szeged.hu/korlevel/



I wish to add that the document of the Bishop's Conference is also
accessible - in a more manageable form - at
http://goliat.eik.bme.hu/~reffyb/tal/korlev/cimlap.html

For those interested in other aspects of Hungarian Christian life, I suggest
to cast a glance to
http://goliat.eik.bme.hu/~reffyb/kalapcim.html

George Jalsovszky