(Jorma Kypp|) wrote:
>   The Swedish connection with Russia continues: still Ivan the Terrible was a
n
>   ancestor of Rurik!

   The other way around.

- Smirnov

 (Tony Pace) wrote:

>Please note, Turkish rule preceeded the Austrian rule and subsequent
>Magyarization by several centuries. In reading Evlije Celebi's To3ro3k
>vila1gutazo1 Magyarorsza1gutaza1sai, vol I, 1660-1664 and vol, II, 1664-
>1666, Budapest 1904, and 1908 it is rather clear that the impartial
>Turkish author referred to To1t vila1jeti -meaning Slovak country-
>and named its rives Va'g (Va'h) Ipol (Ipol~) Garam (Hron) and Tisa
>in volume I, pg 89, I pg. 354, II pg 213, II pg 148, and pg 376.
>
>So please, in the future when tempted to refer to Slovakia as Felvidek,
>know that history would not be served because in the 1660's, which is
>over a century before the the beginnings of Magyarization, the Turkish
>rulers of Hungary, referred to Slovakia as Slovak Country.
>
>Second, in reading Ludwig Fekete's Tuerkische Schriften aus dem Archive
>des Palatins Nikolaus Eszterhazy 1606-45, Budapest 1932 and also Velics-
>Kammerer's Magyarorsza1gi to3ro3k defterek, vol I 1543-1635 vol II 1540-
>1639 it is quite apparent that during the days of the Turkish rule
>the name Toth belonged amongst the most numerous in Hungary.
>
>The turkish documents make reference to numerous settlements, which are
>at present located outside the territory of Slovakia about which Velics-
>Kammerer wrote "lako1i ko3ru3lbelu3l fele re1szben szla1v neveket viselnek"
>in translation "of the citizens about half have slavic names" in vol II
>on pg 145, and even Buda was referred to as Budin, also slavic in vol II,
>on pg. 532.
>
>All disclaimers apply. Not speaking for Ford.


I have no reason to challenge Tony Pacek's references, but I would like 
to note that in Central Europe it is quite common for each language group 
to give their own names to places.  Hungarians call Wien -> Becs, 
Bratislava -> Pozsony, etc.  The Austrians reciprocate by calling Pecs 
->Funfkirchen, Gyor -> Raab and Pest as Ofen and the Germans are still 
comming in hordes to the Plattensee (Balaton).  Frankly, it doesn't 
bother anyone very much as long as they can find their way. 

As a matter of fact, around the Balaton there are many signs in German, 
without arrousing such unnatural fear in the local population that they 
would be tempted to march on their Parliament and demonstrate in favor of 
a Language Law that would ban these "dangerous" foreign signs that 
"threaten" Hungary's national security. 

Also, no one would claim that Vienna is a Hungarian city just because it 
has a Hungarian name also.  BTW, the English also have their own name for 
Wien as Vienna and Kobehavn as Copenhagen. Indeed, the Brits and their 
American cousins, with wild abandon, call Deutschland -> Germany, 
Oesterreich -> Austria, etc, etc, not to mention Magyarorszag -> Hungary. 
 It really doesn't matter very much as long as their money ends up in the 
right place in Budapest.  -:) 

As far as Slovakia being called Felvidek (Uplands in English?) for 
several centuries is not surprising, since it was the "upper or northern" 
part of Hungary. 

Best regards

Charlie Vamossy

>Let's get something straight here: 

>the alleged Hun-Magyar dynastic continuity it's neither a historical
>fact, nor a myth without any basis in facts. It is just a plain
>misconception. There is no connection, whatsoever, between the 5th
>century Attila the Hun and 9th century Arpad. Period.

>Liviu Iordache 

You know having Magyar blood, I like to indulge in the fantasy that
maybe one of my ancestors was a Hun. Atilla was a truly great leader,
and I admire him immensely. Maybe there was no direct descendancy from
Atilla to Arpad, but what is the connection between the Huns and the
present day Hungarians? I would love to know.

Adrian Precup-Pop > wrote:
>2.a. Language used in signs in public places - the Quebec model.
>Quebec has (or had until recently) a law which forbids the use of
>English in signs in public. Even the internationally adopted "STOP"
>sign, used at crossroads, was translated as "ARRET" (France's sign reads
>"STOP", but some people are more catholic than the Pope).

The sign is red with six sides. Same as everywhere else. This is the result
of Bill 101. This law was taken to the Supreme Court of Canada where it was
ruled unconstitutional. Quebec invoked the notwithstanding clause --
consequently the tongue troopers prevailed. The rationale, according to the
Quebecois, is that they are a French culture wishing to preserve their
French culture and that Bill 101 provides them, not only with the security
of their French culture, but present to the world, the "face" of their
French culture. All the products in the stores are bilingual. Bill 101 was
adjusted to permit other languages to be displayed inside stores. The
public domain is the face and public signs are the mascara on that face --
they want the makeup to be French.

The USA is right next door and is the most dynamic and powerful cultural
force in the world. It's influence is felt globally. France (the Pope) was
concerned for the purity of its culture due to US cultural influences
(Disney, English, Franglais). If the Pope felt the force of Anglo (US)
culture, then you can imagine how forceful it feels to the Quebecois, due
to proximity and demographics. Their feeling of cultural/linguistic
insecurity was not insignificant. Bill 101 provided them with security.

I'm personally ambivalent about Bill 101. I would be opposed to an Anglo
equivalent to Bill 101 -- but then again, my English language is found
globally, so nothing to feel insecure about.

-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

Adrian Precup-Pop > wrote:
>3. Active promotion of minorities - "affirmative action" (U.S.) or
>"employment job equity" (Canada).
>This concept is failing and is being abandoned in North America. It
>basically requires quotas/targets for minorities in universities intakes
>and employment opportunities. This is reminiscent of the "numerus
>clausus" law applied against Jews in various countries before WW2. We
>can also remember that Ceausescu also stipulated a "proportional
>representation of minorities at all levels of party and state
>leadership". What that meant was that at the "elections" for the Great
>National Assembly, if there were 3 candidates in an electoral riding,
>they all had to match the same description, e.g. German middle-aged
>women. The fact is that wherever this concept was applied it led to
>resentments from the other side(s) and to the lowering of general 
>standards in universities and jobs.

I consider affirmative action and equity to be odious concepts -- very
undemocratic.

>My conclusion: Canada is a great country, but this does not mean that
>Romania should blindly follow its example. There are good things, but
>also there are bad things. Even too much of a good thing could sometimes
>turn into a bad thing!

I don't disagree with this. I never proposed that Romania follow it
blindly. I do argue with the proposition that Romanians and Magyars have
nothing to learn from anywhere else in the world. People anywhere have
something to learn from people elsewhere. The world is a global village.
The days of cultural insularity are forever gone. Thank goodness.

I personally oppose the narrow vision of Quebec's seperatists aka
sovereignists, preferring instead, what I regard as a wider vision of
Canada as a multicultural mosaic bound by democratic ideals. My preference
is more than likely to be rejected by the Quebecois in the near future. I
also am opposed to the narrow vision of too many "Anglo" Canadians who fail
to understand or appreciate or accept the notion that Canada is a country
containing two dominate nations, that the Quebecois are *a people.*

This is the mutual misfortune of "two solitudes" as described so well in
Hugh McLennans novel of the same title. (He, along with other Montreal
literati attended my poetic "bar mihtzva" in 1970).

-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

Because of a large Hungarian and German minority presently living in 
Romania, few of them having the 'double minority' unluck of being gay or 
lesbian too, I've cross posted this message to the other two forums.

This is an unathorized copy of a Veronica Gopher search result (keywords: 
roman* sodomy) done by me. The results left me breathless and once again
ashamed of my own country. As the old say/lozinca goes: citeste si da mai
departe/ read it and pass it on. 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Date: 08 May 94 21:41 PDT
From: International Gay Lesbian Human Rights Commission >
Lines: 66

Update  (April '92; & July / August '93 Action Alerts)

Romanian Court Considers Constitutionality of Article 200

        In a case that could have far reaching implications for
        lesbians and gays in Romania, the Constitutional Court in
        Bucharest is scheduled to begin a hearing on May 5th to
        consider the constitutionality of Article 200 of that
        country's Penal Code. Under the current Romanian penal
        code, Article 200, paragraph 1 imposes a total ban on
        lesbian and gay relations with a prison sentence of 1 to 5
        years for any gay or lesbian sexual relationship.
        Paragraph four of the same Article prohibits the
        "incitement or enticement of a person to commit the acts
        referred to in paragraph 1". Letters need to be sent to
        the judges at the Constitutional Court asking them to find
        Article 200 unconstitutional.  The arrest, prosecution,
        torture and harassment of gay Romanians has continued
        unabated since President Ceausescu's regime.  At least 57
        persons are thought to be currently incarcerated under
        authority of Article 200. The case the court will consider
        beginning on the 5th of May involves four defendants all
        of whom were arrested for private, consensual sex acts.
        The round up occurred in Sibiu, Romania between January
        and February of 1993.

Letters should make the following points:

1. Separation of church and state, respect for a private sphere
unencroached by unnecessary state regulation, tolerance for
diversity, and guaranties of freedom of speech and assembly are
fundamental to democratic and civil societies. Article 200 runs
contrary to all of those values.

2. Article 200 of the Romanian Penal Code contradicts Romania's
own constitutional guarantees of equal protection (Article 16),
right to privacy (Article 26), freedom of assembly (Article 36),
and the constitutionally stated commitment to subordinate national
laws to the international human rights treaties and covenants to
which Romania is a signatory. As such the Court should find
Article 200 of the Romanian Penal Code unconstitutional.

Recommendations passed by the Parliamentary Assembly of the
Council of Europe (Recommendation 924/81 and Motion for
Recommendation Document 6348/90), decisions issued by the European
Court of Human Rights (Dudgeon vs United Kingdom, 1982; Norris vs
Ireland, 1988; and Modinos vs Cyprus, 1993), as well as the recent
resolution passed by the European Parliament of the European Union
(A3-0028 / 94), have all called for the decriminalization of
private, consensual homosexual relations and in some cases for an
end to state sanctioned discrimination against lesbians and gay
men. What's more, the United Nations Human Rights Committee
recently found Tasmania's sodomy law to be in violation of the
International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. As a
signatory to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the
European Convention on Human Rights, Romania has an obligation to
honor the emerging international consensus that private sexual
acts are not a legitimate sphere for state regulation.

Write to:

Presidente Vasile Gionea Curtea Constitutionala Cabinetul
Presedinteiui Casa Republicii Cal. 13 Septembrie nr.1, et. 5
Sector 5 Bucuresti ROMANIA

fax: +40-1-312-5480
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
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Mathias Muench-Dalstein <matze> wrote:
>>ace226 ) wrote:
>>: Can anyone tell me what Germany and Deutschland mean? I was wondering becau
se 
>>: it's translated between languages (Allemande (sp?) in french). Is there a 
>>: literal translation or perhaps there's a latin root to the word?
>
>Hi everybody,
>
>this is my version of the origin of "deutsch", "german", "allemand" etc:
>
>1. The descent of the word "German" is simple: The Roman scientist Tacitus des
cribed the Germanic tribes as
>"Germanae" (maybe he used another case (-: ), derived from the Germanic word "
german" which means "spear
>man". BTW when Germans say "Germane" they include the English, Dutch and Scand
inavians.
>
>2. The word "deutsch" goes back to the old Germanic word "thiut" for "people".
 Also "duits" (Dutch) and
>"tedesco" (Italian) are related to "thiut".
>
>3. The Germanic people that happened to live closest to the French called them
self "alamans", "alemannen" or
>alike. That's where the French, Spanish and Portuguese word is from. Today we 
call the Swabian (SW Germany),
>Alsatian (that's in France) and Swiss-German dialects "Alemannisch". 
>But don't ask me what "ala" means. There are languages where "ala" means cave 
or grotto (the Baltic
>languages) - thus, is the alaman a cave man? Or is the ralation to "oel" (Scan
dinavian languages) and "ale"
>(English) an indication to the beer consumption of the Swiss? ((-: 
>Who knows more, I'm only guessing here. 
>
>4. Can anybody explain me why Russians call us "nemetskyi", Bulgarians "nemski
" (or similar) and even
>Hungarians (a non-slavic people) "ne'met"?
>
>Pleas follow up or mail in English.
>
>Bye, Matze
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------
>Mathias Muench-Dalstein   Email: 
>World Wide Web:     http://www.rewi.hu-berlin.de/~matze/
>Humboldt-University of Berlin (Germany),  Faculty of Law
>


-- 
  ,-._|\  Waldemar Kruk                        Limit to 
about 76 cols->
 /  Oz  \ Mail Address, Phone, Fax. Member, Melbourne PC 
User Group.
 \_,--.x/ Edit/replace text but don't exceed 4 lines as per 
netiquette.
       v  ++++ Fancy borders count as a line 
~~~~~~~~~~-----++++++++++
Hello Mathias!

I found you are very active net surfer! I'd like to add up 
that in Poland Germany is called Niemcy and German, Niemiec 
and why?? This is not end: Hungarian is called: Wegier 
(Hungary=Wegry) and Italian, Wloch!!! (Italy=wlochy) Why? 

---------------------------------158643039519378
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain

From: Mathias Muench-Dalstein <matze>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,soc.culture.russian,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.cul
ture.magyar,soc.culture.polish,soc.culture.czeho-slov=
ak,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.ukrainian
Subject: Re: Meaning of "Germany"
Date: 24 Nov 1995 22:16:04 GMT
Organization: Humboldt Universitaet zu Berlin
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: >
References: > >

>ace226 ) wrote:
>: Can anyone tell me what Germany and Deutschland mean? I was wondering becaus
e 
>: it's translated between languages (Allemande (sp?) in french). Is there a 
>: literal translation or perhaps there's a latin root to the word?

Hi everybody,

this is my version of the origin of "deutsch", "german", "allemand" etc:

1. The descent of the word "German" is simple: The Roman scientist Tacitus desc
ribed the Germanic tribes as
"Germanae" (maybe he used another case (-: ), derived from the Germanic word "g
erman" which means "spear
man". BTW when Germans say "Germane" they include the English, Dutch and Scandi
navians.

2. The word "deutsch" goes back to the old Germanic word "thiut" for "people". 
Also "duits" (Dutch) and
"tedesco" (Italian) are related to "thiut".

3. The Germanic people that happened to live closest to the French called thems
elf "alamans", "alemannen" or
alike. That's where the French, Spanish and Portuguese word is from. Today we c
all the Swabian (SW Germany),
Alsatian (that's in France) and Swiss-German dialects "Alemannisch". 
But don't ask me what "ala" means. There are languages where "ala" means cave o
r grotto (the Baltic
languages) - thus, is the alaman a cave man? Or is the ralation to "oel" (Scand
inavian languages) and "ale"
(English) an indication to the beer consumption of the Swiss? ((-: 
Who knows more, I'm only guessing here. 

4. Can anybody explain me why Russians call us "nemetskyi", Bulgarians "nemski"
 (or similar) and even
Hungarians (a non-slavic people) "ne'met"?

Pleas follow up or mail in English.

Bye, Matze


> --------------------------------------------------------
Mathias Muench-Dalstein   Email: 
World Wide Web:     http://www.rewi.hu-berlin.de/~matze/
Humboldt-University of Berlin (Germany),  Faculty of Law


---------------------------------158643039519378--

Slowianie, my lubim sielanki...

Lech

Jorma Kypp| ) wrote:
> Tony Pace ) wrote:
> > Kippis Laszlo writes to Jorma:

I find it very fascinating, that though I got "kippis" Laszlo's
comment by email already few days ago, and though I could now
read how T.P. gave his comment on it, I'ven't yet seen that
article in our server. This is not first time when articles
come from Sweden (2 weeks ago one article travelled 4 days).
And since this is not the first problem in this autumn,
I probaly have to turn to Scatman again. And what that means
is already another story...

Jorma Kypp|
Laukaa, Finland

In article > Ed Ponarin 
du> writes:
> Lenin
>was a quarter Kalmyk (a west Mongol tribe), a quarter Jew (PBS, where 
>are you?), a quarter Swede (Sweden rules!), and I am not sure about the 
>fourth quarter (German, Chuvash (a Christian Turkic tribe) and/or 
>Russian?).
>

Ed:
We have to share the dubious honor off being the same tribe as Lenin
He was 1/8 (not 1/4) scandinavian, 1/8 German, 1/4 Russian, 1/4 Jew,
and 1/4 Chuwash, but in the last I am not 100% shure, maybe it was Kalmyk.

 (Tomas Drgon) wrote:
>In article >,  (Karl Pollak) wrot
e:
>
>>  (Tomas Drgon) wrote:
>> 
>> >This has a little to do with racism. The expression "to talk like a
>> >Hungarian" (rozpravas jak Madar) is a slang expression for talking
>> >nonsense. 
>> 
>> But Tommy, that is EXACTLY what racism IS !!
>> 
>> It just shows how deeply these racial/national prejudices run.
>> Unfortunately, it is not limited to Slovak, it runs in just about in
>> every language, every nation.
>> 
>> In Czech, there is an expression "Turecke hospodarstvi" (Turkish
>> economy) to signify mindless chaos.  I remember an official protest
>> from the Republic of Turkey to Czechoslovakia in the 1960s when one of
>> the CS Ministers used it in his speech.  Quite justifiable complaint,
>> in my view.
>> 
>> Phrases like that even though may seem harmless to the speaker (oh, we
>> don't mean anything by that, it's just a figure of speech) do instil
>> ideas in the audience of contempt or ridicule of the nationality or
>> group of the people mentioned, without any justification in fact.
>> 
>> I am quite sure that there would be a lot of people complaining if I
>> started telling somebody here that he is as stupid as a Slovak and
>> tried to excuse it by saying "oh, it's just a slang expression ..., no
>> harm intended..."
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Karl Pollak               FidoNet 1:153/965
>
>Yes, you are probably right, Karl, but I still think it is a sort of
>benign form of racism. USA is full of Polish jokes and I do not think it
>influences peoples' behavior towards Poles. These figures of speech are
>not real stereotypes, thay are just remnants of old stereotypes. If you
>think about "mongolism" (a trivial name for certain form trisomy (genetic
>dissease)) ...In last century Mongolians were considered as mentally
>retarded. Nowadays everybody knows it is not true, but the name remains
>even in medicine textbooks. Therefor, I don't mind using the "co si madar"
>saying, and I do not mind Hungarians using the expression "butatoth".

     As a child, I remember, once someone asked me if I were 
Polish (descent) and I was insulted.  I wondered then, since 
I knew of no one who was Polish or of Polish descent, what 
was the cause I my reaction. I can only conclude that it was 
from those jokes, based on the stupid assumption that Polish 
people are stupid.
     I also remember wondering what was wrong with Black people. 
Note the assumption that something *was* indeed wrong with them. 
My puzzlement was over specifically what *it* was.   I remember, 
a new friend, in a new neighborhood, told me that her mother 
thought we were Black people moving in.   (They made this judgement 
by our furniture.)   She said that if we had turned out to be Black, 
that they would have made arrangements to move out of the neighbor-
hood.  To me, it was like everyone, except me, knew what was wrong 
with black people. I was too ashamed to show my ignorance and ask.
     Personally, I think this kind of prejudice is the most harmful.

     Clare   8-)
>
>
>TD
>
>-- 
>Signature under construction...

Szervusz!

My grandmotheršs Hungarian Christmas cheesecake recipe is posted on the
Hungarian Pronunciation Tutoršs www site with our best wishes for the
season!

Absolutely my favorite dessert!

http://homepage.interaccess.com/~jas/hungarian_pronunciation.html

A wave of new age is sweeping the United States, and many people are
reverting to pagan beliefs in this country. I am curious to see if
there is a paralell tendency in Hungary. What is still known about the
old religion and its practices besides the myths of Emese and the
like? Are there any in Hungary who are starting to practice the old
ways again?

Adrian Precup-Pop > wrote:
>2.b. Language used in signs in public places - the Markham, Ontario
>model.
>There is a rising concern in some parts of metropolitan Toronto about
>the development of Chinese shopping malls where the only language of
>display is Chinese, even some restaurant menus being Chinese only. The
>areas have a large Chinese community, but there are also many people who
>do not know this language and love Chinese food; does it make business
>sense for restaurant owners to ignore some of their potential customers?

It makes business sense if the surrounding neighbourhood is largely Chinese
and a satisfactory profit is realized from that community. I've gone for
dim sum in Chinese restaurants and have no need for a menu because I choose
from what is rolled around from table to table. I've learned a very small
amount of Chinese to order what I want.

>Is a ghetto mentality appropriate for this end of a century?

Personally, I don't think it is appropriate, but I will not legislate
against it, nor will I support any action which encourages it.

>My opinion about this is to use any language in displaying the firms'
>signs, with due regard to everybody's feelings. 

Why should they have due regard to my feelings about the cultural matter?

However, there are some cultural matters that are Canadian that I support.
My opinion is that Canada needs to come down heavy on traditional Chinese
pharmacies where the selling of bear parts is conducted as a remedy. This
is an instance when a distinct Canadian cultural value takes precedence
over any other ethnic cultural value. I've been in the Canadian wilderness
too often in my life to devalue this precious environment. I actively
encourage immigrants from anywhere to get out of urban areas and go north
into the wilderness. 

>I do not favour
>enforcing rules by law, just by following a good business sense.

I agree.

>Regarding traffic signs, Romania has signed the 1968 Convention and its
>signs correspond to those used in other co-signatories, even if
>sometimes they do not reflect Romanian words, e.g. H for the "hospital"
>sign.

I don't disagree.

In my area of Ontario, Iroquois (the Hurons) was the predominate language
until the English colonizers arrived and built their "malls" with
exclusively English signs outside, exclusively English-labeled products,
exclusive English services. English won out. It was not always a pretty
process. A lot was lost because of it -- but who knew then, the
consequences for the future, especially for the First Nations people.

Year by year, the Asian population in lower British Columbia will become
the majority, demographically, economically, politically. Such is cultural
evolution. Overall, the Anglos in Canada are less than 50% of the
population. Canada no longer has an ethnic majority. Everyone is a
minority. Is there another country in the world in which this is the
situation? Canada does not define itself in terms of ethnicity (except the
Quebecois on Quebecois turf). It is a country in a state of becoming.
Becoming what? <shrug shrug>.

-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

Listen up Budweiser: Looks like you've got a lot of time on your hands.
I know this shrink in Beverly Hills who may be able to help you!
However, you've got to finish High School first, he'll only take educated 
patients. Are you the only one, or does it run in the family... do let us 
know!

Dr. Laszlo

Budweiser:
You must've inherited your disease, stupidity does run in the family, 
doesn't
it? ... When you're going to get your High School Diploma?  
... do let us know!

Dr. Laszlo

Hermes  > wrote:
>
>Panonica sweet cheeks, this post of yours was not even a low blow !
>It was a somewhat acurate description of the stark naked truth, that is
>offending the traveler's nose in many a public facility throughout Romania.

Hermes,
for the first time, you leave me speechless!  That deserves an admission
on my part, that the situation north of Arad is not all that much
better.

>But I do not think that going into 
>denial as some on scr do, every time this comes up, will do much to clean
>up public facilities in Romania.

Believe me, this also has been one my recurring complaints vis a vis my
old country, so I know the feeling all too well.

Joe

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---------------------------------33081837119603
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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Mathias Muench-Dalstein <matze> wrote:
>>ace226 ) wrote:
>>: Can anyone tell me what Germany and Deutschland mean? I was wondering becau
se 
>>: it's translated between languages (Allemande (sp?) in french). Is there a 
>>: literal translation or perhaps there's a latin root to the word?
>
>Hi everybody,
>
>this is my version of the origin of "deutsch", "german", "allemand" etc:
>
>1. The descent of the word "German" is simple: The Roman scientist Tacitus des
cribed the Germanic tribes as
>"Germanae" (maybe he used another case (-: ), derived from the Germanic word "
german" which means "spear
>man". BTW when Germans say "Germane" they include the English, Dutch and Scand
inavians.
>
>2. The word "deutsch" goes back to the old Germanic word "thiut" for "people".
 Also "duits" (Dutch) and
>"tedesco" (Italian) are related to "thiut".
>
>3. The Germanic people that happened to live closest to the French called them
self "alamans", "alemannen" or
>alike. That's where the French, Spanish and Portuguese word is from. Today we 
call the Swabian (SW Germany),
>Alsatian (that's in France) and Swiss-German dialects "Alemannisch". 
>But don't ask me what "ala" means. There are languages where "ala" means cave 
or grotto (the Baltic
>languages) - thus, is the alaman a cave man? Or is the ralation to "oel" (Scan
dinavian languages) and "ale"
>(English) an indication to the beer consumption of the Swiss? ((-: 
>Who knows more, I'm only guessing here. 
>
>4. Can anybody explain me why Russians call us "nemetskyi", Bulgarians "nemski
" (or similar) and even
>Hungarians (a non-slavic people) "ne'met"?
>
>Pleas follow up or mail in English.
>
>Bye, Matze
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------
>Mathias Muench-Dalstein   Email: 
>World Wide Web:     http://www.rewi.hu-berlin.de/~matze/
>Humboldt-University of Berlin (Germany),  Faculty of Law
>


-- 
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~~~~~~~~~~-----++++++++++
Hello Mathias!

I found you are very active net surfer! I'd like to add up 
that in Poland Germany is called Niemcy and German, Niemiec 
and why?? This is not end: Hungarian is called: Wegier 
(Hungary=Wegry) and Italian, Wloch!!! (Italy=wlochy) Why? 

---------------------------------33081837119603
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain

From: Mathias Muench-Dalstein <matze>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,soc.culture.russian,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.cul
ture.magyar,soc.culture.polish,soc.culture.czeho-slov=
ak,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.ukrainian
Subject: Re: Meaning of "Germany"
Date: 24 Nov 1995 22:16:04 GMT
Organization: Humboldt Universitaet zu Berlin
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: >
References: > >

>ace226 ) wrote:
>: Can anyone tell me what Germany and Deutschland mean? I was wondering becaus
e 
>: it's translated between languages (Allemande (sp?) in french). Is there a 
>: literal translation or perhaps there's a latin root to the word?

Hi everybody,

this is my version of the origin of "deutsch", "german", "allemand" etc:

1. The descent of the word "German" is simple: The Roman scientist Tacitus desc
ribed the Germanic tribes as
"Germanae" (maybe he used another case (-: ), derived from the Germanic word "g
erman" which means "spear
man". BTW when Germans say "Germane" they include the English, Dutch and Scandi
navians.

2. The word "deutsch" goes back to the old Germanic word "thiut" for "people". 
Also "duits" (Dutch) and
"tedesco" (Italian) are related to "thiut".

3. The Germanic people that happened to live closest to the French called thems
elf "alamans", "alemannen" or
alike. That's where the French, Spanish and Portuguese word is from. Today we c
all the Swabian (SW Germany),
Alsatian (that's in France) and Swiss-German dialects "Alemannisch". 
But don't ask me what "ala" means. There are languages where "ala" means cave o
r grotto (the Baltic
languages) - thus, is the alaman a cave man? Or is the ralation to "oel" (Scand
inavian languages) and "ale"
(English) an indication to the beer consumption of the Swiss? ((-: 
Who knows more, I'm only guessing here. 

4. Can anybody explain me why Russians call us "nemetskyi", Bulgarians "nemski"
 (or similar) and even
Hungarians (a non-slavic people) "ne'met"?

Pleas follow up or mail in English.

Bye, Matze


> --------------------------------------------------------
Mathias Muench-Dalstein   Email: 
World Wide Web:     http://www.rewi.hu-berlin.de/~matze/
Humboldt-University of Berlin (Germany),  Faculty of Law


---------------------------------33081837119603--

The Hungarians have a hard time in Slovakia.
 
The Finns and Saamis in Sweden.


 
#.................aga parem hilja kui mitte kunagi..................... #
                            ---jami---

Tony Pace ) wrote:
> Kippis Laszlo writes to Jorma:

"kippis" is Finnish and means egeszegedevedre (again forgot spelling)
and naztrdavia etc...:) (just an information)

> >  Previously you compared Hungary to Sweden as former colonisator
> >of Slovakia / Finnland. This is more than unfair. From the 16th century
> >Hungary was a colony of Austria, with very limited influence over it's
> >own territory.
> >Large parts of todays Slovakia has never had any Slovakian population at
> >all.

I try to answer later, when the original article of "kippis" comes also
to our server, I've only got it by email. Now just a note.
I suppose, that from Slovakian viewpoint Hungary wasn't "colony" in
Austria, that was called at least in our historybooks as Austrian-Hungarian
Empire. 
Before year 900 A.D. there was no Hungarian population in whole Pannonia,
only Slavs. Who were where and when is extremely relative matter.

Jorma Kypp|
Laukaa, Finland


h|l|kyn k|l|kyn (also "kippis")

> Please note, Turkish rule preceeded the Austrian rule and subsequent
> Magyarization by several centuries. In reading Evlije Celebi's To3ro3k
> vila1gutazo1 Magyarorsza1gutaza1sai, vol I, 1660-1664 and vol, II, 1664-
> 1666, Budapest 1904, and 1908 it is rather clear that the impartial
> Turkish author referred to To1t vila1jeti -meaning Slovak country-
> and named its rives Va'g (Va'h) Ipol (Ipol~) Garam (Hron) and Tisa
> in volume I, pg 89, I pg. 354, II pg 213, II pg 148, and pg 376.

> So please, in the future when tempted to refer to Slovakia as Felvidek,
> know that history would not be served because in the 1660's, which is
> over a century before the the beginnings of Magyarization, the Turkish
> rulers of Hungary, referred to Slovakia as Slovak Country.

> Second, in reading Ludwig Fekete's Tuerkische Schriften aus dem Archive
> des Palatins Nikolaus Eszterhazy 1606-45, Budapest 1932 and also Velics-
> Kammerer's Magyarorsza1gi to3ro3k defterek, vol I 1543-1635 vol II 1540-
> 1639 it is quite apparent that during the days of the Turkish rule
> the name Toth belonged amongst the most numerous in Hungary.

> The turkish documents make reference to numerous settlements, which are
> at present located outside the territory of Slovakia about which Velics-
> Kammerer wrote "lako1i ko3ru3lbelu3l fele re1szben szla1v neveket viselnek"
> in translation "of the citizens about half have slavic names" in vol II
> on pg 145, and even Buda was referred to as Budin, also slavic in vol II,
> on pg. 532.

> All disclaimers apply. Not speaking for Ford.

|> "Przebywajac w Szwecji slyszalem od Szwedow ze "Slav" pochodzi od
|> skandynawskiego slowa "slav" - niewolnik.  Nazwa ta podobno zostala nadana
|> przez Vikingow przywozacych niewolnikow z wojen na obszarach zamieszkalych
|> przez Slowian.  Czy kto prawda?"
|> 

Please note that this thread is crossposted to a number of newsgroups:

soc.culture.german, soc.culture.russian, soc.culture.bulgaria, 
soc.culture.magyar, soc.culture.polish, soc.culture.czeho-slovak,
soc.culture.yugoslavia, soc.culture.ukrainian

....so let's stick to English, so everybody can understand.

Wojtek
-- 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wojciech R. Rypniewski		tel: +49-40-89902142
EMBL c/o DESY			fax: +49-40-89902149
Notkestrasse 85			E-mail: 
D-22603 Hamburg, Germany	WWW: http://www.embl-hamburg.de/~Wojtek/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

In article >, "eur.co" > says:
>
>Wishful scheming,romanian turd!

Does anyone know how to get this unfortunate individual off the net, or 
at least how to post a complaint to the sysadmin of his/her provider 
service?? (At the same time please recommend a good counsellour for our 
friend, .)

George

**** George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK ***
*
** Spaceship Earth, Milky Way Galaxy ** Cybernautic address:  *
*
 * NW London Computer Club * Commodore=64 stuff wanted: tell me what you have *
 * Interested in secondhand chess books? Ask for my list * Collections bought *

Hermes > wrote:

>> Black Sea coast, bemoans their ignorance of Latin  "Nesciaque est
>> vocis quod barbara lingua Latinae." [Ovidius Naso, Publius, 1922 ,
>> Tristia, R.Merkel et al. (eds.), Leipzig. 
>> This is quite a blow for the "theory" of pre-Roman-conquest
>> romanization of the Dacians ;-)

>Bull ! Remember that before WWII the most widely spoken language in Romania
>was French. Now it is English by far, in a space of 50 years !

Remember that you are comparing processes separated by 2000 years of
progress in science, civilization, and mentality. Organized
educational system, printed-books, radio, TV, computers, these are
just several things that Burebista's Dacians did not take advantage
of. Moreover, only a social minority was in contact with the Romans,
but the average Dacian was under the influence of Ovid's spell as much
as  the Romanian peasant, 50 years ago, was under the influence of
French. Maybe even less.

>Thus as the
>Romans thrust North, in commerce as well as conquest, it is likely that the
>locals were fast learners.

According to the same reasoning, I predict that Romanians will soon
switch to Turkish :-)

Regards,

Liviu Iordache

"In article >,  
"ays...
">
">Jan Sapak > wrote on the Slovak list on 11/28/95:
">"

">This is a very sad day in the Carpathian Basin, 

      sad to whom?
      are you still dreaming of hungary being in the carpathian basin?


"as both countries are 
">struggling with economic woes, hoping for admission into the club of 
">Europe.

      i doubt that slovakia has any of the problems hungary has.


">
">President Kovac's action calls questionable the whole Treaty recently 
">signed between Hungary and Slovakia, as the law directly violates 
">several sections, especially Article 15.
">
">The Slovak Parliament's reluctance to pass the Treaty, coupled with the 
">speedy passage of the Language Law, seems to indicate that Slovakia 
"does 
">not wish to become a member of the European Union and accept its 
"entrance 
">requirements.

      the hungarians have already made one of their furious demarches.
      when the eu told them the law was ok (which i would have told 
      them outright), they proklaimed that the eu is in error...
      

">
>Hopefully, as the Eurostatesmen consider Hungary's application, they 
will 
>note that the Hungarian Parliament has passed the Treaty already.


      they should also look at the treatment of minorities in hungary...

In article >,  
says...
>

">I believe that the future of Europe is Euroregionalism. But  I am
">not sure how or even if this can be effected  (c.f. the hostility
">towards thios idea in soc. culture.czecho-slovak).  
">
">Kevin Hannan
">
">

     some, mainly the french, think so, too.   but it is easier said
     than done.   in today's newspaper i read that western sweden
     has developed its own flag and a preamble to a west-swedish
     constitution, in view of declaring themselves a "euro-region."      
     the local chamber of commerce invited one mp who originates from
     that part of the country and organized a tele-conference with
     representatives of wales and catalonia, to  back their aspirations 
     with more substance.   but, alas, the welsh and the catalonians
     let them down...   they gave them a catlog of historic events
     showing how they had been subdued by their respective larger 
     entities and why they would like to free themselves and become
     independent nations.   so, the bubble has burst.   i think that 
     there is more nonsense than romanticism when it comes to "regions"  
     that are not even self-sustainable, but dream about                 
     "independence."   i wonder how the french will take it when the
     bretons, basques, or corsicans start talking about euroregions...?

In article >, 
 says...
>
 (Jorma Kypp|) wrote:
>>   The Swedish connection with Russia continues: still Ivan the Terrible 
was an
>>   ancestor of Rurik!
>
>   The other way around.
>
>- Smirnov


In the swedish newsgroup swnet.svenska,subject:
"Ryska rospiggar",there has been an discussion (in swedish) about the 
possible connection between the word: 

-"rospigg"(singularis) (who is the name of a a person from "Roslagen" (an 
area about 100 kilometers north of Stockholm)

-and the word "Rus"

(In swedish "Russian" becomes "Ryss").

In my swedish etymologic wordbook it is written:
(here translated to english)

-"rospiggar",
(from ancient swedish),"rosbyggiar","-roslagsbor"(inhabitants of roslagen)
(from ancient swedish),"Rodhin"  related to "rodd"

and

 "rodd"="rowing" 
 
"byggiar" i believe is related to 
-"byggare"(in english:"builders") and -"bo"(in english:inhabitant of)



rodhin-rodd-ros-rus 


This is an older theory (there is newer i read).
Maybe at least it is for some interest tough.


Merry Christmas 



Written by:Anders Fransson


P.S. Sweden is best.(Sverige a"r bäst)

On Sat, 2 Dec 1995, Liviu Iordache wrote:

> >Bull ! Remember that before WWII the most widely spoken 
> >(foreign) language in Romania was French. Now it is English 
> >by far, in a space of 50 years !
> 
> Remember that you are comparing processes separated by 2000 years of
> progress in science, civilization, and mentality. Organized
> educational system, printed-books, radio, TV, computers, these are
> just several things that Burebista's Dacians did not take advantage
> of. 

Yes, however you were dealing with a much smaller populational base,
thus latin language penetration were likely to be more dinamic.

> Moreover, only a social minority was in contact with the Romans,
> but the average Dacian was under the influence of Ovid's spell as much
> as  the Romanian peasant, 50 years ago, was under the influence of
> French. Maybe even less.

True, but whom do you need to influence first ? Those that were interested
in the security and markets offered by the Empire ! The DECISION MAKERS !
Those that had clout in there communities.
It was a time that we have not seen in recent history. Population 
displacement only, would have had a significant effect. The Dacians routinely
raided south of the Danube (one of the Emperor's gripes for starting a war),
they brought back not only things, but as was customary people too, latin
speakink people.
Later on, there were small roman merchant and craftman communities in pre
conquest Dacia, they brought their knowledge, language and culture. 
How much influence they may have had is indeed debatable, I am only saying 
that if anything, they set a trend ! 

> >Romans thrust North, in commerce as well as conquest, it is likely that the
> >locals were fast learners.
> 
> According to the same reasoning, I predict that Romanians will soon
> switch to Turkish :-)

Are you saying that the Turks are bringing a superior culture ?!
Their wares, unlike those of the Empire, are not admired but scorned in
many instances as 'turcisme' !
Although some of those prostituting themselves in Stambul and Izmir may
indeed be influenced by their clients language, I have a feel that the
situation is not quite comparable ;=)

m. cristian

In article >,  (Igor GAZDI
K) says:

>>This is a very sad day in the Carpathian Basin, 
>
> sad to whom? are you still dreaming of hungary being in the carpathian basin?
>
>      i doubt that slovakia has any of the problems hungary has.
>
>      the hungarians have already made one of their furious demarches.
>      when the eu told them the law was ok (which i would have told 
>      them outright), they proklaimed that the eu is in error...
>      
>      they should also look at the treatment of minorities in hungary...
>
Reading this ignorant pro-Slovak nationalistic, hateful and embarrassingly 
stupid drivel makes it clear how such half-witted thugs like Meciar, etc, 
can be voted into power in Slovakia. No wonder the Czechs were glad to be 
rid of them!

A good Slovak friend of mine in England lamented the day that Meciar gained
power and predicted such things as this neo-Nazi language law. He told me
that the low level of education in Slovakia was probably the main factor 
in allowing these developments....the country is, essentially, still in the 
Middle Ages...

George

** George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK **
 Spaceship Earth, Milky Way Galaxy ** Cybernautic address: 
NB: The BBC has ceased to provide Internet access to the public but email to
the above address will be forwarded onto a new PIPEX address throughout 1996
   * C=64 stuff wanted * Interested in s/h chess books? Ask for my list *

In article >,  
says...
>
 (Tony Pace) wrote:
">As far as Slovakia being called Felvidek (Uplands in English?) for 
">several centuries is not surprising, since it was the "upper or 
"northern" 
">part of Hungary. 
">
">Best regards
"">Charlie Vamossy 
">" 
">

      wouldn't it be more proper to call hungary "lower slovakia,"
      as the hungarians came there much later.   besides, the areas
      west of the danube were populated by slovak tribes.   bishop
      gorazd, for instance, lived in a place whose name nowadays is
      sekesfehervar.   by the way, pozony is not a "hungarian" name
      for bratislava.   it is one of many names the city has had in
      the course of millenia.   the "hungarian" version is just 
      a misspelling of the latin name posoniensum.

On Fri, 1 Dec 1995, Liviu Iordache wrote:

> Black Sea coast, bemoans their ignorance of Latin  "Nesciaque est
> vocis quod barbara lingua Latinae." [Ovidius Naso, Publius, 1922 ,
> Tristia, R.Merkel et al. (eds.), Leipzig. 
> This is quite a blow for the "theory" of pre-Roman-conquest
> romanization of the Dacians ;-)
> Liviu Iordache

Bull ! Remember that before WWII the most widely spoken language in Romania
was French. Now it is English by far, in a space of 50 years ! Thus as the
Romans thrust North, in commerce as well as conquest, it is likely that the
locals were fast learners. And between Augustus and Traianus, Latin was 
becoming more and more fashionable amongst the barbarians.

m. cristian

With all this theorizing, there must be some of you linguists out there,
that will connect slava = fame with cole-slaw the cabbage salad.
Go for it :)

>In article >,  (Jorma
>Kypp|) wrote:

> 
>    > The place where Rurik came was Roslagen, and it has been said that
>they were called
>    > "rus" because of that. The Finnish name for Sweden is "Ruotsi" and
>probably
>    > has the same origin.
> 
>Sounds believable. Another believable version belongs to Mikhail
>Lomonosov, who derived "Rus" from the slavic root "ruz" (a river or a land
>rich with rivers). This may suggest that "russ slavs", which took over the
>other slavic tribes and consolidated them, where "river people"
This is quite likely, as the Polish are known as Poles (in Polish this
means 'field' - they were the people of the plains/fields of the
Vistula River area), so the idea that 'ruz' is river may well have
some truth.
Susan

 (Daniel Nikovski) wrote:
>
>I have been interested in the origin of the word Austria, as used in most
>countries to designate the state whose own citizens call \"Osterreich. Why
>is it called a "State to the East", when it is in fact to the South from
>Germany? Also, why do Checks call Austria "Rakousko"?
>

I believe the region was named in the days of Charlemagne's Empire. The border 
regions of this empire were called 'marks', & they were conquered only for the 
purpose of defending the central part against invading forces. 
 
This is also how Denmark got its name (Mark of/against the Danes). \"Osterreich
 was 
first called Ostmark (Mark in the East) and it apparently changed its name as s
oon 
as it gained independence. I recently heard that when Hitler seized \"Osterreic
h 
during the Anschluss, he said that "The Ostmark had returned into the Reich".

Bart.

In article >, eur.co > wrote:
>I would be very interested to hear indeed,where You get the 
>idea that Huns are from (?) and magyars are from (?).Please be 
>so kind as to explain and prove Hungarian ancestry.Thank you 
>very much.

Is this so important that it had to be posted half a dozen times though?

Joe Pannon

 (Tomas Drgon) wrote:

>Yes, you are probably right, Karl, but I still think it is a sort of
>benign form of racism. 

There is no such thing as "benign racism".  ALL racism is malignant in
the most repulsive way.

>USA is full of Polish jokes and I do not think it
>influences peoples' behavior towards Poles. 

Yes, it actually does, and the Polish American Congress (or whatever
they call themselves) spends a lot of time and effort to root out this
image of a "dumb Pollack" bestowed on all Poles by these "harmless
little Polish jokes"

>These figures of speech are
>not real stereotypes, thay are just remnants of old stereotypes. 

Aaww c'mon Tom, that's just crap.  What difference does it make
whether it is "real" stereotype or "old" one or a "remnant" of an old
one?  By lumping people into one group and ascribe them certain
qualities you are stereotyping them, and it makes no difference
whether you just started doing it or it is something you picked up
from your grandfather.

>Therefor, I don't mind using the "co si madar"
>saying, and I do not mind Hungarians using the expression "butatoth".  

I'm sure you will also not mind being described by other people as a
racist or being treated as one.  All you are doing is looking for
excuses to an inexusable behaviour.  I'm quite sure that if I were to
start telling "harmless 'dumb Slovak' jokes" in here, quite a few
people would get very upset.  And with good reason.

Liviu Iordache ) wrote:
> Anyhow, I can see now that definitely you have some Balkan and/or
> Byzantine blood in your veins but not enough to balance the lack of
> subtility. If you got the impression that I'm seriously pissed, at
  (*) 
> least now  you're correct.

PC Liviu Iordache reveals his true bigoted self. It is not a pretty sight. 

Pray tell us, Mr. Iordache:  how exactly did Alexander 
betray his Balkan and/or Byzantine "blood?" Do you have any other 
juicy tidbits that you would like to share with us, concerning ethnic 
or religious groups you happen to dislike? 


Mircea

(*)  Are you a graduate of the "Madame Chiritza Academy for the
Advanced Study of Foreign Languages: La Furculition" by any chance?

>> What should he put it in English?
>Isn't he using a wonderful language?
>(is it always a must to understand what someone writes?)


No - butit does help if you want to et your message across!

Certainly, 'slav' has nothing to do with 'slave'. What we have in the 
English language is a derivation from Latin 'sclavus'; about 50% of 
modern English words are derived from Latin. The same is in French - 
'esclave', which was also derived from Latin, and in Italian (since it 
is a heir to Latin).But you do not find it in German, though, according 
to this theory, if slaves were imported from the territories inhabited 
by the Slavs, the Germans (who were the closest neighbors and buyers) 
should have been the first to pick up the word.Sometimes (maybe, often) 
different words in different languages strike us with their similarity; 
but phonetic closeness does not imply the same meaning. I can make such 
an experiment with other words too.

		The explanation by slave trade from regions inhabited by the Slavs to 
the Roman state is impossible since 
1. see above.
2. the contacts of the Romans with Slavic people began very late when 
slave systsem had already passed its peak and, therefore, the main 
concepts (including 'sclavus') had already been in use for a long time.
3. the word 'Slav' itself appeared very late - like the word 'Rus', by 
the way - for the Romans to use it: somewhere under the Byzantine 
empire, it seems.

The story about some Jewish merchant selling the Slavs as slaves to the 
Romans was very funny. Thank you.

In article >,  (Jorma
Kypp|) wrote:

 
    > The place where Rurik came was Roslagen, and it has been said that
they were called
    > "rus" because of that. The Finnish name for Sweden is "Ruotsi" and
probably
    > has the same origin.
 
Sounds believable. Another believable version belongs to Mikhail
Lomonosov, who derived "Rus" from the slavic root "ruz" (a river or a land
rich with rivers). This may suggest that "russ slavs", which took over the
other slavic tribes and consolidated them, where "river people" (traveling
merchants and warriors). Their biological origin can not be figured and,
actually, makes no difference. Most probably, those gangs were quite
international.

    > The Swedish connection with Russia continues: still Ivan the
Terrible was an
    > ancestor of Rurik!
    > And because Romanov family comes from Prussia or Poland, and Stalin
was from
    > Georgia, it seems that the only real Russian leaders during last
1000 years
    > have been Boris Godunov, Lenin(?), and all the guys from Chruchev to
today..

Does it make any difference? They all had to deal with local people, speak
their language, and act with respect to local cultural background. In
other words, they had to associate with Slavs, behave like Slavs, and,
actually, BE Slavs - otherwice they would be thrown away. History knows
several examples of the consequences of a cultural misfit. 

By the way, among the people you named only Stalin (Djugashvili) was a
direct product of a non-Slavic culture (he spent his childhood in a
Georgian family). Everybody else were raised within Slavic cultural
background. And even Stalin openly associated himself with Russian rather
than Georgian people, as long as politics rather than Georgian wine was
concerned.

I guess you agree that "biological" origin makes not much of a difference
as compared to cultural factors (otherwice we'll have to talk about your
racism).

MP

-- 




Nobody at all, including my past, current and future employers, is responsible 
for whatever is written above.

In article >,
Anders Fransson > wrote:
|In article >, 
 says...
|>
 (Jorma Kypp|) wrote:
|>>   The Swedish connection with Russia continues: still Ivan the Terrible 
|    ........
| ..............
|-"rospiggar",
|(from ancient swedish),"rosbyggiar","-roslagsbor"(inhabitants of roslagen)
|(from ancient swedish),"Rodhin"  related to "rodd"
|
 Hey! let's see if we can connect "Rodhin" and 'rodina',
 and "rodd" with 'rid' = extended family.
| 
|"byggiar" i believe is related to 
|-"byggare"(in english:"builders") and -"bo"(in english:inhabitant of)
|
Now probably "byggiar" and 'bugger' in english is just a homonym.
But maybe some enterprising entymologist will find a connection.
|
|This is an older theory (there is newer i read).
|Maybe at least it is for some interest tough.
|
|Merry Christmas 
|
|Written by:Anders Fransson
|
|P.S. Sweden is best.(Sverige a"r bdst)
|

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From:  (Liviu Iordache)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.romanian,soc.culture.magyar
Subject: Re: Magyars' Hun-ancestry !? (was Re: Joe & Quebec .....)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 19:26:48 GMT
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 (George Szaszvari) wrote:

>>Huns were Turkic and the Magyars were Ob-Ugrian from the Urals (the word
>>Hungarian being an unfortunate corruption of Ugrian, which now leads many
>>simpletons to equate Hun with Magyar.)

>Actually, the name-forms "Ungari" and "Hungari" are derived not from
>the original name of the Uralic (Finno-Ugric) Megyers, but from the
>alternate name of the Bulgarians (i.e., Onogurs).

>Liviu Iordache

It's been a long time since I read up Finno-Ugrian origins as the
vagueness of my memory on this detail painfully reminds me! Unfortunately,
I don't have the time or occasion to check out much of this stuff now
(life can be a bitch!) but the postings to the ng seem enthusiastic enough
to correct any lapses. Keep up the good work!

George


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> It's not that the Hungarians do not want to get involved and speak up.
> It's that most Hungarians who live in small cities/towns do not have
> access to INTERNET.  Also, the majority of Hungarians do not speak
> English.
> As far as I know, Internet is only provided in cities like Gyor, and
> Budapest.
> Tell me, how can anyone staying in Tatabanya or Komarom have the
> chance to even own a computer or a modem and to read English like many
> others do?

I think you are under estimating our Hungarian reliative and the country
we all decend from.  I was back 3 years ago, and my cousin came here this
summer, Hungarians are still one of the most modern in all the european
countries.  Espcially in the former Communist Counrties.  Almost every person
in my generation, who is attending university now speaks some english. 
Besides in this group you don't only have to speak english but you can
write any thing concerning Hungary/Hungarians.  My younger cousins ages 7
& 9 are learning English in the school and they also have computer classes.
It's not that I'm slashing you out BUT give our
relatives and the former country a little credit.  I don't know if you
have been back recently but you would not recognize Hungary today, if you
haven't been back in 10 years.  It is modern and booming in the industry
market. Technology wise you can purchase what ever you want.  Fashion wise and
education wise they are way ahead of us here in Canada and America.  
The thing is may be you should go into the universities in Hungary through
e-mail and you can start up a discussion with them.  The thing is we have
to find someone who will take the time to start the discussion and not
start an argument over every wrong thing that is said.  I hope I did not
hurt your feelings in any way, but it is a common question people ask
WHERE ARE THE HUNGARIANS, as the first person who wrote in put it.
Christina
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
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On 2 Dec 1995, Gabor Barsai wrote:

> I don't recall the Magyars speaking Latin.
> Gabor

The Kings records seem to have been kept in Latin ! They must not
have developed an alphabet on Zog ;=))

m. cristian

On 2 Dec 1995, Gabor Barsai wrote:

> Likely? It may also be likely that the locals were from the planet Zog-3. ;-|
> Gabor

Yes, that is somewhat accurate. But only the one's that were asimilated
by the Magyars, spawning the Szekely. Nobody seems to know where the 
Szekely come from, so you must be right, they must be from Zog-3.
What an epic that would have made, 'From Zog to Transylvania' too bad
they don't seem to have been literate.

m. cristian

 (Anders Fransson) wrote:
>
>   In the swedish newsgroup swnet.svenska,subject:
>   "Ryska rospiggar",there has been an discussion (in swedish) about the 
>   possible connection between the word: 
>
>   -"rospigg"(singularis) (who is the name of a a person from "Roslagen" (an 
>
>   -"rospiggar",
>   (from ancient swedish),"rosbyggiar","-roslagsbor"

   Oh I see. "Rospigg" certainly means "Russian pig", and "rosbyggiar"- 
"Russian bugger" :))))

- Smirnov

Dmitri Prokofiev > wrote:
>....When I
>was learning German (not very profoundly, I must confess) I noticed that there
 
>existed an adjective `teutlich' meaning comprehensible, understandable, ...
>                      ^^^^^^^^^

Terribly sorry, the correct spelling is `deutlich'. Which seems to make my
point still clearer.

Dima

 (Christina Magyar) wrote:



>I think you are under estimating our Hungarian reliative and the country

I don't mean to.  Sorry.  As a matter of fact, I love Hungarians and I
love the Hungarian Language.  I think it is the most beautiful
language I have ever heard.

>we all decend from.  I was back 3 years ago, and my cousin came here this
>summer, Hungarians are still one of the most modern in all the european
>countries.  Espcially in the former Communist Counrties.  Almost every person
>in my generation, who is attending university now speaks some english. 

But I am talking about the adults there, not the new generations
(teenagers, kids).  I am sure kids are learning English in school now.
I just don't like the idea of using a Hungarian Teacher to teach
English in Hungarian. (which is a fact.  I saw it with my eyes.  My
Hungarian friend's mother is a school principal).

>relatives and the former country a little credit.  I don't know if you
>have been back recently but you would not recognize Hungary today, if you
>haven't been back in 10 years.  It is modern and booming in the industry
>market. Technology wise you can purchase what ever you want.  Fashion wise and
>education wise they are way ahead of us here in Canada and America.  

I have been to Hungary 4 times during the last 2 years.  From what I
see, yes, the industry is booming, but technology....I don't think so,
electronics...worse,  fashion....haven't seen anything I
like....education ahead of Canada and America?  Are you serious?
I am not trying to degrade Hungary or anything.  Like I said, I love
Hungary.  I am just trying to tell you these are the things I see in
Hungary during the four times I  visited Hungary.

>The thing is may be you should go into the universities in Hungary through
>e-mail and you can start up a discussion with them.  The thing is we have
>to find someone who will take the time to start the discussion and not
>start an argument over every wrong thing that is said.  I hope I did not
>hurt your feelings in any way, but it is a common question people ask
>WHERE ARE THE HUNGARIANS, as the first person who wrote in put it.

Glad we talked.

 wrote:


>>the alleged Hun-Magyar dynastic continuity it's neither a historical
>>fact, nor a myth without any basis in facts. It is just a plain
>>misconception. There is no connection, whatsoever, between the 5th
>>century Attila the Hun and 9th century Arpad. Period.

>Maybe there was no direct descendancy from
>Atilla to Arpad, but what is the connection between the Huns and the
>present day Hungarians? I would love to know.

As I already wrote above,  there is no connection.

Liviu Iordache