Amos J. Danube wrote:
>
> On Aug 12,  8:31am, Eva S. Balogh wrote:
> > Subject: Re: English-Only Bill in the USA (was: American Imperialism)
> > At 01:09 PM 8/11/96 -0400, Burian wrote:
> >
> > >Okay, here's my opinion of the "English Only" Bill.  It means that English
> > >is the official langauge of the USA, not that it be the only one ever
> > >spoken!
> > >
> > >I'm for it--and I'm not narrow-minded (I don't think).  For a country to
> > >be represented in more than one language divides the country (as in
> > >Canada).
> >
> >         When someone emigrates, one ought to realize that that move
includes
> > learning most likely a new language. As Jeliko rightly pointed out in the
> > case of the United States, people move not borders.
> ----------------------
>       I agree with both of these views. It is true that the Republicans
>    didn't start this bill in an inoffensive way  (but then when do they
>    do anything in a sensible way?).  This doesn't mean that the idea is
>    wrong.
>       What I resent is that I have to pay for the preservation of some-
>    body else's culture.As long as there is no prohibition on "minority"
>    culture, and there is none here in the States,  it should be the re-
>    sponsibility of the members of that culture to preserve it.  This is
>    most certainly not my duty.It has become fashionable to blame every-
>    body else for one's lack of effort. And the opposition to the law is
>    based on this premise.
>       Some people have taken  the test and the oath  for citizenship in
>    Spanish just recently in Texas. I don't care who says what,  this is
>    wrong. The law on American-English is needed.
>                                                   Amos


DITTO!!!!!
Jozsi Hill

Joe Szalai wrote:
>
> At 01:16 PM 8/12/96 -0400, "Amos J. Danube" > wrote:
>
> >      What I resent is that I have to pay for the preservation of some-
> >   body else's culture.As long as there is no prohibition on "minority"
> >   culture, and there is none here in the States,  it should be the re-
> >   sponsibility of the members of that culture to preserve it.  This is
> >   most certainly not my duty.It has become fashionable to blame every-
> >   body else for one's lack of effort. And the opposition to the law is
> >   based on this premise.
>
> What premise?  Where do you get this "fashionable to blame everybody else
> for one's lack of effort", nonsense from?  You're probably reading too many
> right wing opinion makers who upchuck that stuff non stop.  And what is the
> cause of their ranting?  One or two isolated incidents that show just how
> far society has decayed?  C'mon now!  Get real!
>
> >      Some people have taken  the test and the oath  for citizenship in
> >   Spanish just recently in Texas. I don't care who says what,  this is
> >   wrong. The law on American-English is needed.
>
> Why is it wrong?  And you will demand that the hearing-impaired take the
> oath for citizenship in American Sign Language, right?
>
> Joe Szalai


Joe, you are whistling out of the far left corner of your mouth!!!
Why don't you try to go to any civilized country and try to become a
citizen and take the oath in your native tounge. Or just for the fun of
it why don't you try sneak into Mexico from the South. Illegally!! See
what that will get you. Wake up, look reality in the eye!! This country
is MUCH TOO LENIENT AGAINST THE ILLEGALS!!!
Jozsi Hill

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 16 Aug 1996, Joseph U. & Sharon W. Hill wrote:
> what that will get you. Wake up, look reality in the eye!! This country
> is MUCH TOO LENIENT AGAINST THE ILLEGALS!!!
 Perhaps - this however is irrelevant to the issue at hand: most Spanish
speakers are not only legal, but not even first-generation immigrants. As
a matter of fact, some of them are more indigeneous than the 'illegal'
yankees robbing Texas, California etc. from Mexico ;-)...

 --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQBVAwUBMhVauMQ/4s87M5ohAQGCnAH/WnDFUS2fcS8wlobhLQDBv6ZTlEcTAM91
+jQq6/RblPs5xZEMNA87jNe0cE8/tVHioA0JkzQmzL9SA6JyhMo+Hw==
=QdfK
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

I have to grant Sam Stowe's point that an academy for the English language
would probably be a waste of money--only because it would be a government
institution.  But we do have a concept called "national treasures"--things
which we try to preserve because we feel that if we lost them, we'd lose a
part of who we are.  I still maintain that the English language deserves
that designation.  How to keep English alive?  I don't know.  But please
don't say that American English's evolution through the country's
multi-cultural contributions is the same thing as misusing words, or not
using words at all.  When people's average vocabulary drops (not
changes--drops) thousands of words in the past fifty years (as I mentioned
in the Harper's quote), we're losing our language.

Burian

Regarding the debate between who has been more horrible to "nonbelievers,"
the Church or the Communists, my vote goes to the Church, even though I
recognize how truly horrible the communists have been.  The reason: the
communists never claimed to perpetrate their horrors out of "love."  (The
most they could claim was the "dignity of the working man"--though they
never expected anyone to really believe that.)  Whereas the Church, by
doing all its torture and burning out of "love," poisoned the word, the
genuine lessons of Jesus, and the idea of God itself.

There are so many gays and lesbians (to mention just one group) walking
around who get physically ill at the mere mention of "God"--and all
because of what the Church, not God, did to them.

You may remember the Max Von Sydow line in Woody Allen's "Hannah and Her
Sisters": "If Jesus came down to earth and saw what people were doing in
his name, he'd never stop throwing up."

One last memory: when I was in Christchurch, New Zealand twenty years ago,
I came across a local character known as The Wizard--a man who'd dress in
a wizardy outfit and stand in the main park every day during lunch hour,
holding a phone to his ear.  And periodically he'd say into the phone,
"All right, God . . . yes . . . I'll tell them."

Burian

Mark Humphreys said:


You are actually making the same point as I
when you say that a society/s fall is a //combination of several arenas
of cor-
ruptions.//  That/s is why I don/t see why gays should take all the blame.

>> I agree, but just like putting poison into water, it only takes a
little to get one
>> really sick....thus it is the coninuous combination of //poisons//
that will kill one
>> eventually!

How do they know even the
personal habits of an entire group of people they never met!!  Then they
thought.....

>> here is an example of the fact that peopl all over the world like to
label others
>> with sitgmatic labels: dirty Arabs, filthy Gypsies, lazy Blacks, etc.
>> It is possible that some people in EVERY ethnic may meet one or more of
>>> these labels. Thus when some simple minded folk (and there are many)
>> observe one or two, the natural (incorrect) tendency is to label the
group
>> as a whole as being that type. Then those who do not know better (i.e.
>> they have not even encountered those people and had a civilzed discussion
>> then get on the rumour bandwagon and say Yea Yea those *&^@#$ people!
>>
>> It would be nice if mankind could figure out that we all, regardless
of ethnic,
>> color, race, religion basically put on our pants the say way, have to
eat,
>> bleed the same way, suffer the same way, etc. after all we are made of
the
>> same thing. Lots of people in the States and Canada say that we are
(or
>> should be equal....that is wrong. Some are given more in one thing
than others
>> yet no one is perfect. We have equal protection under the law, but not
in other
>> things.

You could replace the word /Hungarian/ in this story with /homo-
sexual/ and see how idiotic both hatreds are.

>> I disagree here.... there are certain basic rights and wrongs. I
challenge anyone
>> to show me where it is OK in any document accepted since eons that
>> Homosexuality or that behaviour is approved.

>> Regarding your last comment on the //big brother// (communists,
church, etc.)
>> There are many people who need //crutches// meaning that they feel
that they >> have to go to church and belong to groups in order to put
order into their mind.
>> Others can stand with minimal use of such crutches. I agree that the
>> fundamental problem whether or not to question (or to explain) is one
major
>> essential of a cult.
>> If one starts questioning (in these cases) you are frowned upon and
perhaps >> //ex-communicated//. Yet the truth will always win in the end.

>> BTW: the bible promises extra punisnment for the Levites (priests) who go
>> down the wrong path knowingly!!!!!!

>> Peter

Joe Szalai said:

//Until you explain *who* the /undesireable types/ are, in Turkish baths in
Budapest, and why you think it/s OK to call people by dehumanizing labels
such as /doles/, /reds/, /pinkos/, /corrupt bastards/, /Germans/,
/Rusiians/(sic), I have little interest in carrying on a //civilized
conversation on what reality is// with you.  And when you explain, I just may
not want to.

> I will answer your question:

The undesirables in Hungarian Turkish baths are people who do not have
repsect for others. For example, they P*ss, S**t, F**t, perform acts in
public in the water.

The doles means those people who have attached themselves to free money
instead of working for themselves -- this is true both in Hungary and
elsewhere.

The reds (and pinkos) are communists in different form.

The corrupt bastards are those who take bribes and steal while on their
entrusted jobs.

The refrence to Germans...(is a British thing) when they say oh you know
the Germans (nazi/s militaristics, etc.)

The Russians (a Hungarian and other thing) after the occupation for many
years
that they are just evil, cultureless, and destroyers.

I hope that this answers your query.
Peter

I also heard that the Anglo types have difficulty learning other languages.

Andy:
We are not afraid of two languages. In fact we have the most languages
spoken in our country in the world. The issue is the official language
which costs tons of extra money to administer, etc.
Peter

At 11:45 PM 8/16/96 -0400, Zoltan Szekely wrote:

>Joe:
<snip>
>> Actually, I'd say that you're more prone to conspiracy theories than me.
>> I believe that anyone who has a strong faith in a 'creator' or whatever
>> you call it, believes that nature, and death, which is a part of nature,
>> is out to get you.
>Why don't you tell it simply: any Christian is a
>conspirationist (and also religious Jews...). That's
>your point? Just tell me straight, let me laugh.

I said that anyone who has a "strong" faith might be more prone to
conspiracy theories.  I didn't say all believers or all those who have faith
are so prone, but if you insist..., if you know something that I don't...,
then please share.  Otherwise, sorry to deny you a chuckle

>> >Asymmetrical thinking is an attitude. Period.

>> Yeah.  And in my books it belongs to those who are brain dead.

>Not at all. It is the state of the world now, in the
>end of the most hated Century of the Earth. You don't
>know the history if you don't see this asymmetry. My
>point was about changing this feature of a deadly time,
>if possible for the coming of a New Century. But
>nevermind. You are involved in defending something
>different (another stuff in the center of you mind?).

First of all, I meant to say that "symmetrical" thinking belonges to those
who are brain dead.  Why?  Because every thought, every idea, every notion
upsets the symmetry.  It's the way we are.  Or, at least I think we're like
that.  We've always been like that.  And yes, history, and not just in this
century, seems to be nothing more than the recording of war, and the story
of how we got there.  It's brutal and ugly and I don't wish to defend it in
any way whatsoever.

However, you come on the scene and you start talking about how asymmetrical
thinking is the cause of all the ills in the world.  First of all, you never
explained what you mean by "asymmetrical" thinking and then you inform us of
your Christian faith.  Well, all my life, people who call themselves
Christian have been telling me that there are ways to peace.  And I hope
there is.  However, you guys have controlled the agenda for two thousand
years and look where we are today!  It's not a pretty picture.  So, I'm
sorry if you think I'm not taking your asymmetrical idea too seriously.
Provide me with a good working definition of that concept, or forget it.

>Your matematics bashing is really funny. I enjoy it.
>Do you have more?

I sure do.  However, I wasn't matematics bashing, I was just trying to be
cute.

Joe Szalai

"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain,
and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality."
           Albert Einstein

"You treat world history as a mathematician does mathematics, in which
nothing but laws and formulas exist, no reality, no good and evil, no time,
no yesterday, no tomorrow, nothing but an eternal, shallow, mathematical
present."
           Hermann Hesse

P.S.  Is Hermann Hesse talking about a symmetrical thinker??

At 07:31 PM 8/16/96 -0700, Jozsi Hill wrote:

>Joe, you are whistling out of the far left corner of your mouth!!!
>Why don't you try to go to any civilized country and try to become a
>citizen and take the oath in your native tounge. Or just for the fun of
>it why don't you try sneak into Mexico from the South. Illegally!! See
>what that will get you. Wake up, look reality in the eye!! This country
>is MUCH TOO LENIENT AGAINST THE ILLEGALS!!!

>From a native American point of view, we're all ILLEGALS!  Perhaps we should
all be shipped back to Europe, Asia, and Africa.  Would you like that, Jozsi?

And I don't give a damn what Mexico does with it's illegal immigrants.  I
always assumed that the US was better than Mexico.  Now, you want the US to
have the same procedures that Mexico has.  What a shame.  Why not spend your
energy on bringing Mexico up to the same high standard that the US has?

And why is it that under the North American Free Trade Act, goods can freely
move from country to country but not people?  Are goods more precious than
people?

Joe Szalai

"When Americans look out on the world, they see nothing but dark and
menacing strangers who appear to have no sense of rhythm at all, nor any
respect or affection for white people; and white Americans really do not
know what to make of all this, except to increase the defense budget."
                James Baldwin

At 08:33 PM 8/15/96 -0400, Zoli Szekely wrote:
>Peter Hidas:
>> To complete the picture
>> one should mention the activities of G. Lukacs after 1956 when he tried
>> the save the life of many revolutionaries.

Zoli Szkeley:
>And also, he joined the Communist Party of Kadar, the murderer
>of Imre Nagy Prime Minister of the Revolution, in 1967 just
>one year before he died.
> He just could not make it without this.
>Too bad. Now, you can not argue that in the end he was not a
>Communist...  :-(

        And so did 800,000 other people! Too bad!

        Eva Balogh

At 03:46 PM 8/15/96 -0400, Zoli Szekely wrote:

>Eva, it looks to me you changed your mind a little bit about
>Heidegger, and danced back from your previous opinion. I wonder
>why.

        I reread my earlier postings and I don't see any "dancing back from
my previous opinion." In my first posting I simply said that the extent of
their involvements, at least based on my reading of the two articles in The
Encyclopedia of Philosophy, are not equated. And indeed, they are not.
Heidegger's involvement with the Nazi movement received about two sentences
and Lukacs's about three paragraphs. Lukacs's whole adult life was
interwoven with the communist movement. A simple biographical treatment of
Lukacs will reveal a very heavy involvement that movement. Heidegger's
wasn't actively involvement with the Nazi movement.

ESB:
>He was sympathetic to the Third Reich

Zoli Szekely:
>What do you mean by 'sympathetic to the Third Reich'? You can be
>sympathetic to somebody, but to a system of institutions?

        That is, I'm afraid, only your interpretation of the English
language in this instance.

>And
>you also forgot that Heidegger was disgusted by the Nazis pushing
>their agenda at his university already in 1934, so he resigned.

        I'm not an expert on Heidegger and I don't know why he resigned from
the University of Fryburg's rectorship. One can resign from a post for
various reasons, not just political.

>(For example, all the disciples of George Lukacs were fascinated
>by their patron, and his ideological quasy-philosophy and they
>became very similar to him. Just think about the so-called 'Lukacs-
>Kindergarten', as the group of his disciples are often called,
>and its infamous personalities, like Agnes Heller, Ferenc Feher,
>Istvan Eorsi, etc. They were never accused of 'sympathetism' to
>something wrong. They are, actually, widely celebrated and are all
>above judgement. Is it not asymmetry from its more visible kind?)

        The discipline of philosophy was a joke in the 1950s. Incredible
people were teaching so-called philosophy at the ELTE. One of the worst I
can recall was Jozsef Szigeti. Philosophy, as we know it, was dead! Under a
heavy marxist ideological dictatorship, when nothing else could be taught
except Marxism, I assume Lukacs sounded the most palatable. And that's why
he had the a Kindergarten around him. Under *those circumstances* the
members of the Kindergarten thought that they were doing something which was
actually against the regime.

ESB:
>> and his whole philosophy is
>> marked by a "strand of extreme nationalism."

Zoli Szekely:
>Good Golly! Do you have any clue about philosophy? Nationalism is
>a political-ideological term. It has nothing to do with philosophy,
>especially with ontology. It would be self-contradictory. Have you
>ever heard of 'nationalistic ontology'? No such a thing exist. If
>it is ontology, then it can not be nationalistic. If it is
>nationalistic, it can not be ontology, neither philosophy.

        I love the self-confidence of some people!! You may have noticed
that I put the words, "strand of extreme nationalism" into quotation marks
and for good reason. The quotation is from Marjorie Grene, professor of
philosophy at the University of California, Davis, author of Introduction to
Existentialism (1959), Heidegger (1957), and several other books. Maybe you
ought to turn with your ideas to Professor Grene and ask her whether she has
"any clue about philosophy" or not.

>And may I ask, who has this high level of authority for you, from
>whom you uncritically accept this kind of 'marking'?

        Obviously I rather believe the author of several books on
existentialism and on Heidegger than a Ph.D. candidate in mathematics.

ESB:
>>         (2) According to my knowledge Lukacs was a political officer in the
>> Hungarian Red Army for a few weeks but I haven't ever heard that he was
>> executing his soldiers.

Zoli Szekely:
>If you haven't heard it, that's your problem.

        This is how we discuss matters in Hungary; that is, the place, not
the list. Just ask Zoli Szekely how to respond to a simple statement on the
part of his opponents, a wealth of advice will be forthcoming. Too bad that
in the rest of the world these pieces of advice wouldn't be too useful.


>Truly, he was a
>political Comissar, and from the desk of his literature studies
>he went on straight to show the soldiers how to fight.

        I didn't realize that political commisars were "to show the soldiers
how to fight." I thought that their job was political indoctrination.(;))

ESB:
>> Only God knows what kind of mind he had but not the kind which would
>> appeal to me.

Zoli Szekely:
>This line of thinking about different kind of minds is very
>interesting for me. Do you suggest that in the course of history
>the different kind of minds/mindsets are responsible for the
>different kind of events? And do you really think so, that some
>kind of minds should be simply dismissed as 'not appealing'?

        Yes, there are certain people with certain mindsets which are more
prone to certain ideologies. As for your last sentence, I'm not sure what
you would like me to do about Georg Lukacs's life and philosophy. I don't
have Lukacs's works in my library, I don't agree with most of what he had to
say about literature, I don't think that his philosophy has much to say to
us and I am almost certain that Lukacs will be forgotten. What else would
you like to do--if you were an entirely free agent--with him and his
followers: Kill them? Throw them into jail? What?

>Actually, he ended up praising the German WWII Army (the Wehrmacht)
>and it was a real shock for a couple left-wing entellectuels. Why?

        I also think that the German army was an excellent army. Otherwise,
it is hard to explain their successes practically against the whole world.

>Because now you have to refine/redefine your notion of Nazi, anti-
>semitism, etc. As we start to feel the fresh winds of a new Century,
>we may have the feeling: it's high time!

        No, I don't have to redefine my notion about Nazism, antisemitism.
Why do I? Because Mitterand praised the German army? I can praise the German
army and it doesn't make me either a nazi or an antisemite.

        Eva Balogh

Csaba Zoltani supplied the sources for Lukacs's activities as
political commissar in 1919. Thank you. It was very helpful.

        Of course, the most important of the quoted sources is Lukacs
himself, in his *Memories of 1919.*

>(Lukacs: "Reszem volt...Kiskoren a nyolc voroskatona kivegezteteseben.
>Harom zaszloaljjal mi vedtuk Tiszafurednel a hidfoallast, ket zaszloalj
>batran tartotta magat, de egy pesti zaszloalj...az elso tamadasra
>elmenekult.....Ezutan allapodtunk meg Sarai-Szaboval a megtizedelesben,
>aki kulonben nagyon tisztesseges kommunista elvtars volt..." Kende-Sipos:
>Visszaemlekezesek 1919-re, Budapest, 1989).

        According to the above eight soldiers were shot because a batallion
from Budapest ran away at Tiszafured, at the first attack, while the
Hungarian Red Army was supposed to defend a bridgehead at the Tisza River
against the Romanians.

        I despise all sorts of violence, but I find it rather interesting
that people who would certainly find military action against the Romanians
appealing find Lukacs's decision inexcusable.

        Eva Balogh

At 10:38 AM 8/17/96 -0400, Peter A. Soltesz wrote:

>I also heard that the Anglo types have difficulty learning other languages.

You are very offensive, Peter!

Joe Szalai

At 10:13 AM 8/17/96 -0400, Peter A. Soltesz wrote:

>Mark Humphreys said:
<snip>
>You could replace the word /Hungarian/ in this story with /homo-
>sexual/ and see how idiotic both hatreds are.

Then, Peter Soltesz, who likes to use a lot of ///'s and >>>>'s wrote:

>>> I disagree here.... there are certain basic rights and wrongs. I
>challenge anyone
>>> to show me where it is OK in any document accepted since eons that
>>> Homosexuality or that behaviour is approved.

You're not the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree, are you Peter?  What
you're saying is, if it's written and accepted, then you accept it.  If some
documents or holy books, from eons ago, said that you have to fellate a
dozen men before you become a man, then you'd do it, wouldn't you?  People
who live by what's written don't live at all.

Get a life.  Explore your body.  Get a tube of KY.  Free your mind.  Live!

Joe Szalai

"To live is the rarest thing in the world. Most people exist, that is all."
              Oscar Wilde

At 10:28 AM 8/17/96 -0400, Peter A. Soltesz wrote:

>Joe Szalai said:
>Until you explain *who* the 'undesireable types' are, in Turkish baths in
Budapest, and why you think it's OK to call people by dehumanizing labels
such as 'doles', 'reds', 'pinkos', 'corrupt bastards', 'Germans',
'Rusiians'(sic), ...

Peter Soltesz wrote:
>> I will answer your question:
>
>The undesirables in Hungarian Turkish baths are people who do not have
>repsect for others. For example, they P*ss, S**t, F**t, perform acts in
>public in the water.
>
>The doles means those people who have attached themselves to free money
>instead of working for themselves -- this is true both in Hungary and
>elsewhere.
>
>The reds (and pinkos) are communists in different form.
>
>The corrupt bastards are those who take bribes and steal while on their
>entrusted jobs.
>
>The refrence to Germans...(is a British thing) when they say oh you know
>the Germans (nazi/s militaristics, etc.)
>
>The Russians (a Hungarian and other thing) after the occupation for many
>years
>that they are just evil, cultureless, and destroyers.
>
>I hope that this answers your query.
>Peter

Thanks.  But no, it doesn't.  I asked WHY you think it's "OK to call people
by dehumanizing labels"?  You've given definitions of your terms.  I'd like
to know WHY you think it's OK to use them.

Do you want another crack at the whip?

Joe Szalai

"Nations! What are nations? Tartars! and Huns! and Chinamen! Like insects
they swarm. The historian strives in vain to make them memorable. It is for
want of a man that there are so many men. It is individuals that populate
the world."
                Henry David Thoreau

In article >, Zoltan Szekely
> writes:

>Come on, Sam! It is NOT MY analogy. I am, in fact, deeply ashamed
>by this kind of 'analogies'. That's exactly the whole point: Some
>guys claim symmetry where no symmetry exist! The Heidegger vs.
>Lukacs 'analogy' is a revealing example of the asymmetrical way of
>thinking.
>
>Another interesting case is that of the late Mitterand, earlier
>French President. In his last year as president, before he died,
>he made a couple surprising comments about his WWII past and his
>still-existing respect toward the 'excellence' of the German Army
>of the war.
>
>Now, Mitterand was neither a Nazi nor a Fascist, was he? He simply
>tried to discontinue (I really wonder, why??) a kind of cultic
>behavior in the way of thinking about the Nazi Germany by many
>highly respected intellectuals. This way of thinking is exclusively
>black and white and lacks the deep intellectual effort of real
>understanding of the historical process. (A kind of intellectual
>lazyness.) I call it cultic, because it resembles to ancient cultic
>behavior.

This is bullshit. The only one pushing a close analogy between Heidegger
and Lukacs is you. You've already been asked one time by another poster to
tell us exactly who links the two together so closely and you haven't.
Germany in 1933 was no bed of roses. Does your statement that "In 1933 you
still can not speak of the `Nazi Germany'. It was a process that went on
to its full power" mean that the NSDAP regime was just fine and dandy
until a certain point? When would that be, Zoltan? When Roehm and his pals
were rounded up and liquidated? Kristallnact? When the German Army seized
Czechoslovakia? Hitler began the process of "Gleichsaltung" (I've almost
certainly mispelled this and probably used the wrong phrase to boot) as
soon as Franz von Papen engineered his replacement of Hindenburg. And
never, I repeat, never ask me to defend the reputation of any French
politician from any point on the political compass. That's what really
pissed me off about your reply.
Sam Stowe

"Amiguito, amiguito
soy yo de diablos juradores..."
-- Cervantes

In article >, "Eva S.
Balogh" > writes:

>  (1) My understanding is that there is more to Heidegger's nazi
>sympathies than his one-year-long tenure as president of the University
of
>Freiburg. He was sympathetic to the Third Reich, and his whole philosophy
is
>marked by a "strand of extreme nationalism."
>
>
I think the most accurate comment I ever read on this -- and I can't
remember who wrote it -- was that Heidegger, despite his erudition and
learning, was little more at heart than a Bavarian peasant. I've just
picked up Michael E. Zimmerman's book about Heidegger's views on
technology ("Heidegger's Confrontation With Modernity: Technology,
Politics and Art", 1990, Indiana University Press) and haven't gotten much
past the introduction. Zimmerman already seems to have Heidegger placed in
a strand of German nationalism that rejects communism and capitalism in
favor of a "third way" between the two. Zimmerman doesn't think Heidegger
ever strayed out of that position during his later life, although he did
become disenchanted with the Nazis. Seems strange to me that someone with
such a perceptive, sophisticated philosophy could be so easily coopted by
a bunch of murderous thugs. It just goes to show that even the most
brilliant intellectuals often have a hard time understanding that ideas
have tangible consequences in real life.
Sam Stowe

"Amiguito, amiguito
soy yo de diablos juradores..."
-- Cervantes

At 10:28 AM 8/17/96 -0400, you wrote:
<snip Joe's request>

>> I will answer your question:
>
>The undesirables in Hungarian Turkish baths are people who do not have
>repsect for others. For example, they P*ss, S**t, F**t, perform acts in
>public in the water.

Peter, I have no idea which Turkish baths you have attended in the past.  I
have been to most of the ones in Hungary and some quite recently.  What you
claim above is alien to me.  Never, but never, have I wittnessed any of
these claims - quite the contrary in fact.  I have always found people to be
extremely respectful towards others.

Regards,
Aniko

On Aug 17,  6:55pm, Aniko Dunford wrote:
> Subject: Re: Identities in XV
> At 10:28 AM 8/17/96 -0400, you wrote:
> <snip Joe's request>
>
> >> I will answer your question:
> >
> >The undesirables in Hungarian Turkish baths are people who do not have
> >repsect for others. For example, they P*ss, S**t, F**t, perform acts in
> >public in the water.
>
> Peter, I have no idea which Turkish baths you have attended in the past.  I
> have been to most of the ones in Hungary and some quite recently.  What you
> claim above is alien to me.  Never, but never, have I wittnessed any of
> these claims - quite the contrary in fact.  I have always found people to be
> extremely respectful towards others.
>
> Regards,
> Aniko
>-- End of excerpt from Aniko Dunford

    Could it be the company he keeps?
                                        Amos

Sam:

> This is bullshit.
And that is your language, Sir. It fits you, anyway. ;-((
> The only one pushing a close analogy between Heidegger and Lukacs is you.
I wish you were true.
> You've already been asked one time by another poster to
> tell us exactly who links the two together so closely and you haven't.
I did. I can't help if you do not read. (Hint: read some of
the Frankfurter Schoolers, or the Radical Critizists of the
sixties, seventies.)

> Germany in 1933 was no bed of roses. Does your statement that "In 1933 you
> still can not speak of the `Nazi Germany'. It was a process that went on
> to its full power" mean that the NSDAP regime was just fine and dandy
> until a certain point?
No, Sam it would not mean so. Germany had a flourishing
democracy in the end of twenties and in the beginning of
thirties -- maybe with lots of controversies. But even Hitler
could not change the structures of the democracy overnight.
You could not see everything still hidden in 1933. (Just
another example: the number one in the world American Secret
Service did not know about the conzentration camps until 1944
or so. American forces never bombarded railways going to
these camps. A lot of Jews asked later, why, why, why?)
> When the German Army seized Czechoslovakia?
I thought you knew that. In 1933, of course. ;-)

> And never, I repeat, never ask me to defend the reputation of any French
> politician from any point on the political compass.
What the heck, Sam? You do not nourish anti-French sentiments,
do you?! It would be a big surprise from an anti-hater, like
you...
                                                     Sz. Zoli

Sam:
> I think the most accurate comment I ever read on this -- and I can't
> remember who wrote it -- was that Heidegger, despite his erudition and
> learning, was little more at heart than a Bavarian peasant.
Now, you found the 'echte' bullshit, Sam. Are you overjoyed?
Great! Let me note, that even a karakoszorcsogi paraszt
would try to read the original works before forming a judge-
ment in the guidance of a noname writer, as you do.

Or you are not literate in the language of the modern philo-
sophy? Is Heidegger too incomprehensible to you? Boy, try
harder. Or shut up.
                                                    Sz. Zoli

Joe:
> >> Actually, I'd say that you're more prone to conspiracy theories than me.
> >> I believe that anyone who has a strong faith in a 'creator' or whatever
> >> you call it, believes that nature, and death, which is a part of nature,
> >> is out to get you.
> >Why don't you tell it simply: any Christian is a
> >conspirationist (and also religious Jews...). That's
> >your point? Just tell me straight, let me laugh.
>
> I said that anyone who has a "strong" faith might be more prone to
> conspiracy theories.  I didn't say all believers or all those who have faith
> are so prone, but if you insist..., if you know something that I don't...,
> then please share.

I like that. You hinted if anybody who believes in a Creator,
assumes that this Creator is 'out to get you'. That's what
you said. Now, you withdraw form your earlier positions,
having realized how stupid your comment was. I like that.

> However, you come on the scene and you start talking about how asymmetrical
> thinking is the cause of all the ills in the world.
No, Joe. You overstate what I said. Asymmetrical thinking is
out there in the everyday politics, and makes a lot of trouble.
But it is not the cause of all the ills. (Just one of the
symptomes.)

> Well, all my life, people who call themselves
> Christian have been telling me that there are ways to peace.  And I hope
> there is.  However, you guys have controlled the agenda for two thousand
> years and look where we are today!
In the end of the most hated Century of the Earth you can not
claim, that this century was controlled by Christians.

> >Your matematics bashing is really funny. I enjoy it.
> >Do you have more?
> I sure do.  However, I wasn't matematics bashing, I was just trying to be
> cute.
Thank you. It is really cute of you. I will put them into my
personal collection (just next to the 'funny bug collection'
on my book shelf).
                                                      Sz. Zoli

Well Joe said:

Then, Peter Soltesz, who likes to use a lot of ///'s and >>>>'s wrote:
>> FYI Mr Brilliant --the // equals a double quote and a / equals a
single quote
>> because the Lynx browser I use does not permit the resending of those
chars.


Moreover, it seems that you are beyond help in maintaining a civilized
and intelligent conversation...as you insults continue and your brain
seems disengaged when your fingers do the walking.

Peter Soltesz

At 08:41 PM 8/17/96 -0400, "Amos J. Danube" > wrote:

>    Could it be the company he keeps?
>                                        Amos

Touche!

Joe Szalai

FYI I heard it from an Anglo. If the facts seem to bother you that much
perhaps you live in a dream world of your own making!

On Sat, 17 Aug 1996, Joe Szalai wrote:

> At 10:38 AM 8/17/96 -0400, Peter A. Soltesz wrote:
>
> >I also heard that the Anglo types have difficulty learning other languages.
>
> You are very offensive, Peter!
>
> Joe Szalai
>

Mr. Duna:
That comment was uncalled for and a lowblow.

ESB:
> Lukacs's whole adult life was
> interwoven with the communist movement. A simple biographical treatment of
> Lukacs will reveal a very heavy involvement that movement. Heidegger's
> wasn't actively involvement with the Nazi movement.
That's correct.

>         I'm not an expert on Heidegger and I don't know why he resigned from
> the University of Fryburg's rectorship. One can resign from a post for
Maybe he misused the Internet. He became involved in political
debates using office computers beyond the lunchtime. ;-)

> Under a
> heavy marxist ideological dictatorship, when nothing else could be taught
> except Marxism, I assume Lukacs sounded the most palatable. And that's why
> he had the a Kindergarten around him. Under *those circumstances* the
> members of the Kindergarten thought that they were doing something which was
> actually against the regime.
Don't tell me! Is it really true? Then shame on Heidegger!
He just resigned, when he felt, he could not make compromise
with political thugs, i.e. the Nazis in the 1933-34 Germany.

> You may have noticed
> that I put the words, "strand of extreme nationalism" into quotation marks
> and for good reason. The quotation is from Marjorie Grene, professor of
> philosophy at the University of California, Davis, author of Introduction to
> Existentialism (1959), Heidegger (1957), and several other books.
Oh, you don't have access to more up-to-date literature. What
a pity! (And, of course, you just hate to read the original
Heidegger... You just put him in a box. Very typical.)

About Lukacs' shady past:
>         I didn't realize that political commisars were "to show the soldiers
> how to fight." I thought that their job was political indoctrination.(;))
Good! Now we know, that 'political indoctrination' means
shooting down people. Excellent!

> What else would
> you like to do--if you were an entirely free agent--with him and his
> followers: Kill them? Throw them into jail? What?
I can't believe what you wrote down. It is kind of beyond
what I ever would expect from even a Farkas Doc.

No, don't kill anybody. And, also, do not hail the killer.

                                                   Sz. Zoli

P.S.: Of course, I would write again in this list, if anybody
would come up with something new and interesting in the
topics I have been involved in the last two months.

Cheers!

At 09:32 PM 8/17/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Well Joe said:
>
>Then, Peter Soltesz, who likes to use a lot of ///'s and >>>>'s wrote:
>>> FYI Mr Brilliant --the // equals a double quote and a / equals a
>single quote
>>> because the Lynx browser I use does not permit the resending of those
>chars.
>
>
>Moreover, it seems that you are beyond help in maintaining a civilized
>and intelligent conversation...as you insults continue and your brain
>seems disengaged when your fingers do the walking.
>
>Peter Soltesz
Hmmmm.... did not someone, long ago say, that it takes two to tango?
Aniko
>
>

At 09:42 PM 8/17/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Mr. Duna:
>That comment was uncalled for and a lowblow.

Thank you for saying this.... I would however prefer that you apply it to
your original claims first of all, secondly to the salutation of this note
you wrote to Amos and in closing, I might add that one good comment deserves
an equal one?

Aniko


>
>

I received a copy of a translated version of the homily preached
by His Excellency the Bishop of Kaposvar BELA BALAZS
on the occasion of
HUNGARY/S 1,110TH ANNIVERSARY YEAR
Holy Mass
In Honor Of St. Stephen Of Hungary
on August 16, 1996
At The Basilica Of The National Shrine Of The Immaculate Conception
in Washington, D.C.

Here it is verbatim, please read it even if you are not religious:

A reading form the holy Gospel according to Matthew (Mt. 7,24f)

Jesus said: Everyone who listens to these words of mine and acts
on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock.
The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and buffeted
the house. But it did not collapse; it had been set on solid rock.
...The gospel of the Lord.

Dear brothers and sisters:

The parable of Jesus about the man who build himself a house
speaks of us and is realized in us. It gives us the promise that
// whoever builds on rock will survive the storm //.

Long time ago the holy king offered our country to the Blessed Virgin.
Now it looks as if the devil were conquering everything...
How is this possible?
Is not the God of the Bible also the God of the Hungarians?

Let us ask two questions:

WHAT KIND OF PEOPLE ARE THE HUNGARIANS?
WHAT KIND OF GOD IS GOD?

Our greatest poet of the last century, Sandor Petofi described
us in beautiful words: We are a sensitive and proud nation.
In a famous poem he says:

// I am a Hungarian. My character is serious,
resembling the deep sound of our violins.
Often, a smile appears on my lips.
My laughter is rarely heard.
When joy colors my cheeks I cry for sheer happiness.
In time of sorrow my face smiles because I do not want pity.
... When I look at the ocean of our history I am proud.
... We did act on the stage of Europe.
Our role was not a small one //

At one time when America was discovered our population was
equal to England/s. But from then on we had fifty years of peace.
After the first world war we lost 71% of our territory and 63% of
our population. Had all this not happened Hungary could today be
a major power, even an atomic power since the American atomic
research began with the cooperation of many physicists of
Hungarian origin.

The genius of the nation revealed itself in holiness too.
We have more than 30 canonized or beatified Hungarians.

Of our many writers and poets I would like to mention only one,
Janos Arany, our national classic. He was one of eight children of
a poor peasant family. He translated Shakespeare/s Hamlet using
a vocabulary of 30 thousand Hungarian words to render the ten
thousand English original.  Bela Bartok, one of our great
composers attained world fame, possibly also because he
escaped the confines of a small language and lived many years
in New York and died there.

We have reached 12th place in this year/s Olympic games.
Considering our population of only 10 million we have an
impressive number of Nobel Laureates.

On the other side, (due to our national shortcomings) and inspite
of high talent and charismatic gifts the nation does not make
real progress. We are bad losers, we do not know how to be
patient, how to wait, how to prepare for the future.
Families go to court fighting over inheritances, they quarrel,
they form factions against each other. When we are not successful
we get drunk, commit suicide, resort to abortion.
Not long ago a Hungarian physician said on the Hungarian Radio
that there may be something wrong with our genes.
Let this be as it may.

One thousand years of Christianity were not enough for us to
learn what God of the Bible told us:  The world is a field on which
many enemies try to destroy the good seed (Mt. 13) We need
great patience, patience as the story of Jonah or Job or the
sufferings of St. Paul teach us.

Our holy king who founded our country dedicated our nation to God.
His action was an icon, an example embedded in our history.

It must be repeated as the priest in the sacrifice of the mass repeats
every day the rite of offertory.

LET US ASK WHAT IS GOD LIKE?

God is the God of love. The tears of Jesus (Lk. 14,41) tell us that
he loved his country and his people. He also respects our freedom.
This was noted by the document of Vatican II on Freedom of Religion.
 Jesus does not call upon the 12 legions of angels to reestablish
law and order in Jerusalem.  In this situation God is saddened by
the present but also provides for the future. He sends his
messengers, he sends his Church.

God is also a God who acts. He does not forget any single nation.
When the Hungarians took possession of their country they received
a great grace and opportunity: the preaching of the missionaries
loyal to Rome. Meeting them they met love of God.

The very heart of the Catholic Dogmatic system is the treatise
On Grace. There we read the insight that God does not
disregard human nature. Just the opposite: Grace presupposes
and elevates nature and makes it perfect
(gratia supponit, elevat, perficit naturam).

The sad circumstances ion which we live now and our cruel fate
serve at least this purpose:  we are to experience God as our
only true Benefactor who became // our fellow pilgrim // , to quote
the hymns of the 1938 Eucharistic Congress in Budapest.

This truth was followed by St. Stephen who dedicated the country
to the Blessed Virgin. King Bela IV, elder brother of St. Elizabeth
was guided by this truth when he wrote to the pope in 1239 that he
was willing to become a sacrificial victim for the faith in order to
save his country devastated by the Tartar invasion.
Our best fellow countrymen have practiced this insight ever since.

Our // house // is truly built on rock. What collapsed was built wrongly
by the builders. Those who built well did not lack success.

In our day a healthy charismatic revival appears:  many study theology,
the number of seminarians is growing, we have believing families who
accept many children, new popular mass religious movements arise,
retreat houses are founded and are full of participants, the  Boy Scout
movement grows in spirituality and our Youth Rallies are attended
by thousands.

We have the chance to raise a new generation (although the
chance is measured only in fractions of an inch).   We can prepare
for a new spiritual-intellectual conquest of the country.

The secret of all this is that it is not enough to give one/s life.
One also has to make one/s life a sacrificial life.  Asceticism is
the gateway to mysticism. The first self-dedication must be
repeated and actualized according to the individual/s life history.

Thus the God called the God of the Hungarians becomes the God
of the Bible. Thus the house built on rock will outlast all storms.
Amen.

<<< submitted by Peter Soltesz >>>

Aniko, the only nice place that we have been to is the Gllert and I would
not call that a Turkish bath. I was with my parents and some friends who
actually brought my attention to it ion Buda. I was very disappointed and
we left (neber to return).

Dear Mr, Zsargo:
I would agree with Joe that it would be a positive development,\however,
I have heard myself statements on Jews as "azok a hulye zsidok, es stb"
The gypsies and other Romanian Hungarians were both significantly
insulted via uncalled for ethnic jokes or jokes in very
poor taste. This is quite prevalent in many sections of Hungary
even today.

On Fri, 16 Aug 1996, Joe Szalai wrote:

> At 02:04 AM 8/17/96 +0200, Zsargo Janos wrote:
>
> >Na ide figyelj! Mind a sajat, mind a csaladom, mind pedig a
> >magyarorszagi magyarok neveben KIKEREM magamnak, hogy leanti-
> >szemitazzanak. MAGYARORSZAGON NINCS ALLANDO DISZKRIMINACIO
> >A ZSIDOK ELLEN. Van nehany jobboldali faszfej es liberalis
> >szabadmadar aki a sajat kis celjai erdekeben gerjeszti/ter-
> >jeszti ezt.
>
> Hat ez nagyon jo ujsag!  Kepzeldel hogy a diszkriminacio a zsidok ellen nem
> allandoi, nem hetkoznapi.  Well, I'm absolutely overcome with joy to know
> that discrimination against Jews in Hungary is not constant.  So, it's at
> some kind of an acceptable level, is it?   It's only some right-wing
> 'dickheads' and liberal 'freebirds' who use anti-semitism for their own
> purposes.  It doesn't really exist, does it?  Is that what you're trying to
> say?  Really nothing to worry about, right?
>
> Joe Szalai
>

The current interest rate on dollars is about 2.5%
I think you are better off keeping your money in the
states or elsewhere and have it sent in.
Peter

Pehaps one should also ask what is discrimination?
If one tells Nufie(sp?)[Newfoundlanders] or black (negro) or Gypsie
or Jewish Jokes in private (or in public) is that not
discrimination??? What about those camelridin Arabs, etc????

I am so sorry that you and tour family is so sensitive.
Unfortunatelly the truth hurts does it not>???



On Fri, 16 Aug 1996, S or G Farkas wrote:

> At 02:04 AM 8/17/96 +0200, Janos Zsargo wrote:
>
> >Na ide figyelj! Mind a sajat, mind a csaladom, mind pedig a
> >magyarorszagi magyarok neveben KIKEREM magamnak, hogy leanti-
> >szemitazzanak. MAGYARORSZAGON NINCS ALLANDO DISZKRIMINACIO
> >A ZSIDOK ELLEN. Van nehany jobboldali faszfej es liberalis
> >szabadmadar aki a sajat kis celjai erdekeben gerjeszti/ter-
> >jeszti ezt.
>
> As far as I know, this is true. Would you like me to translate it into
 English?
>
> Gabor D. Farkas
>

At 11:12 PM 8/17/96 -0400, Peter A. Soltesz wrote:

>Pehaps one should also ask what is discrimination?
>If one tells Nufie(sp?)[Newfoundlanders] or black (negro) or Gypsie
>or Jewish Jokes in private (or in public) is that not
>discrimination???

Not in my opinion. It is not nice, it may hurt someone's feelings, but it is
not discrimination.

Discrimination is if someone is denied a job, a place to live, a place in a
school, etc. because of his or her origin.

Gabor D. Farkas

At 09:23 PM 8/17/96 -0400, Zoltan Szekely wrote:

>I like that. You hinted if anybody who believes in a Creator,
>assumes that this Creator is 'out to get you'. That's what
>you said. Now, you withdraw form your earlier positions,
>having realized how stupid your comment was. I like that.

What you like is your interpretation of what you think I said.  I read your
interpretation above and I have to shake my head.  What you wrote is not at
all what I wrote.  Why do you have the need to misconstrue what I wrote?
Relax.  Don't put words in my mouth.  It weakens your position.

>No, Joe. You overstate what I said. Asymmetrical thinking is
>out there in the everyday politics, and makes a lot of trouble.
>But it is not the cause of all the ills. (Just one of the
>symptomes.)

True, most things don't have a singular cause.  But I'd still like to know
what you mean by asymmetrical thinking and why you think it makes a lot of
trouble.  I'm not familiar with that concept in a political context.

>In the end of the most hated Century of the Earth you can not
>claim, that this century was controlled by Christians.

I don't know what you mean.  Most of the notable and notorious characters of
this century were Christian.  I'm not suggesting that their Christianity was
responsible for the ills of this century but I will say that it didn't seem
to do much good to stop it.  So don't be distressed if I don't appear to be
eager to accept any more of their wisdom.

Joe Szalai

P.S. Here's another math bashing quote you can put in your personal collection.

"Mathematics may be defined as the subject in which we never know what we
are talking about, nor whether what we are saying is true."
            Bertrand Russell

At 10:51 PM 8/17/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Aniko, the only nice place that we have been to is the Gllert and I would
>not call that a Turkish bath. I was with my parents and some friends who
>actually brought my attention to it ion Buda. I was very disappointed and
>we left (neber to return).
>
I am sad to hear this.  There are lots and lots of great baths to be enjoyed
in Hungary, many of which draw tourists from all over the world for
medicinal/relaxation  purposes.

As far as other people bringing things to your attention; well, all I can
say is that I try really hard to teach my children to draw their own
conclusions in any one situation, based on all available information/facts
they can acquire prior to doing so.  The other, is to feel free to voice
their feelings/opinions.  Should situations, which you described led you to
never to return.... well, I might have opted for telling *those* people that
they are out of line with their conduct.  The result of such would have
surprised you... and left you to enjoy your day along with more to come.

As for the conduct of *some* people at these baths, the absolute worst I
have ever wittnessed was a young couple engaged in heavy duty kissing....
to this, the reaction by others was rather of envy than disgust - not
excluding myself, since my husband was accross the Atlantic.   This is but
one aspect of Hungary I love to experience.  Acceptance of human
emotions.... be it positive or negative... which would clearly explain as to
why I highly resent your demeaning description.

Regards,
Aniko