Please, please all the good ones, look around and start worrying about 
the living. Agreed that abortion should not be a means of birth control.
But look it the teaming masses of Mexico City, San Paolo, the slums of 
five continents, the polluted environment, the greed of many, the misery 
of the living billions and you worry yourself to death over the unborn?
Such good people! --- The realist - Mark

Andras Kornai > wrote:
>
>Joe Pannon's amusing theories about the Anti-Defamation League notwithstanding
>NPA could go ahead and sue the union for failure to represent him, or even sue
>Argonne. However, NPA's reluctance to provide any avenues for independent
>confirmation of his story for those who are a bit skeptical ("Joe Pannon has
>seen my proofs" just doesn't cut it, sorry) indicates that the story, even to
>the extent it's true, has some serious holes.

And who the hell cares what cuts it for you?  I was, BTW, one of several
people who was exposed to the hard evidence.  Of course none of them is
a member of the Kornai Fan Club, so their word won't cut it either, I
suppose.  What I care about though is your disparaging remarks about me
in the HUNGARY list where you know well I no longer participate to
answer your comments and where most people probably have no clue what
you were referring to.  I know you posted the same article in both
places, but I only mentioned the possible ADL connection in s.c.m.
So involving me in HUNGARY list was uncalled for.
>
>In the US system of justice, which NPA managed to cast in a rather negative
>light on Hungarian Radio, there is such a thing as a "discovery phase". If I
>were a lawyer for the ADL the first thing I'd look at would be NPA's record at
>Argonne. As someone on s.c.m suggested the other day, NPA could have already
>had "some butter on his head" before this whole thing started, even if he was
>cited for good work. 

Oh I see...  Because somebody speculated here that NPA might have
already had "butter on his head", you give it more credence than what
NPA said about the case.  Figures ...
Besides, why would an ADL lawyer do all those things you suggest?  I
only suggested that ADL might have nudged DOE to force the issue, which
is not the same as saying that ADL would be party to a law suit between
NPA and his ANL.
>
>satisfied myself that NPA has not been denied due process.

Well, that settles it then, right Peter? ;-)

Joe

In article >, iFodor  > wrote:
>     Allitolag az Olimpiasz unnepi megnyitojan a magyar csapatot azert
>     nem mutattak, mert nem is volt ott - lerobban az autobusz es lekeste a 
>     ceremoniat! Ezt az informaciot Magyarorszagrol kaptam. 

Egy fraszt kestek le!  Ott voltak ok, s latni is lehetett a csoport
elejet, de a kamera azonnal elment toluk.

PJ

In article >,
   g > wrote:
>Hi, Plamen!
>
>   (1) To which group do belong these two:
>
>        - (modern!) *Avar*
>        - (Afghanistani) *Hasar*?
>
>        *Avar* related to *Dargin, Lezgin, Lak, Kumyk*?
>
>   (2) Does *Dolgan* belong to the Samoyedic group?
>
>   (3)  What about Finn.-Ugr. *Cheremis, Ostyak, Vogul*?
>
>thank you in advance,
>george
>
>PS: compare Radio Liberty (RFE/RL Inc.) announcements:
>
>[cf. Turkish "azat" = liberation; "azatlamak" or "azadetmek" = to liberate, 
set free]
>
>Azeri                   "Danyshyr Asadlyk Radiosu."
>Tatar-Bashkir      "Monda Azatlyk Radiostansyese suyili."
>Uzbek                 "Azadliq radiosidan qapiramiz."
>Turkmen             "Qepleyer Azatlik radiosi."
>Uighur                "Azatliq radiosidin so:zleymiz."
>Kazakh                "Azattiq radiyosinan so:zlep turmiz."
>Kirghiz                "Azattiq radiosunan so:zl:bu:z."
>
>[spelling =/= 100%]
>
>_________________.

Dear George,
	I would like to answer your question, as I can.

(1)	Modern Avar language belongs to the group of Caucasian languages. As 
known this group divides into South Caucasian (Kartvelian) languages, and 
North Caucasian languages. Avar language belongs to the subgroup of North 
Caucasian languages - in which it is in the sub-subgroup of Avar-Ando-Dido 
languages. From all Avar-Ando-Dido languages only Avar is written language, 
with about 504 000 speakers (1980). The other Avar-Ando-Dido languages have 
from 3 000 to 5 000 speakers, and are nonwritten ones.
	Hasar language, which is known in Afghanistan as Hazaras language, 
together with Chahar-Aimak language is Indo-European language, although 
Hazaras and Chahar-Aimaks have typical Mongolian physical features.

(2)	Dolgan language is Turkic language with about 5 100 speakers (1980) 
in Dolgano-Nenets National Okrug in Russian Federation. It is not connected 
with Samoyedic languages, although Dolgans came from Nganasans (Samoyedic 
speaking people). These Nganasans divided from their people, and after that, 
known also as Evenks, adopted dialect language from Turkic speaking Yakuts 
nearby. This is a very interesting example of transforming of a people 
language from Uralic into Altaic group.

(3)	Let now consider Cheremis, Ostyak, and Vogul languages, which are 
Uralic languages, and are very much connected with Hungarian language.
	Cheremish is the other name of Mari language - a singular language 
from the Finnic sub-subgroup of Finno-Ugric subgroup of Uralic languages. The 
Mari people call their language <mari>. There are about 570 000 speakers 
(1980) of this language in the Russian Federation.
	Ostyak is the other name of Khant language - Ob-Ugric language from 
the sub-subgroup of Ugric languages from the subgroup of Finno-Ugric 
languages of Uralic languages. Khant people call their language <khanty>. 
There are about 14 000 speakers of this language (1980). They live in 
Khant-Mansi Autonomous Okrug, Russian Federation, Siberia, with the 
administrative center the town of Khant-Mansijsk, which is at the junction of 
the rivers Ob and Irtysh. Khant language has three spoken dialects - northern 
(about the mouth of Ob), eastern (from the east of Irtysh to the Vakh and 
Vasyngan tributaries), and southern  (between the northern and eastern 
dialects). The literary Khant is based on the northern dialect.
	Vogul is the other name of Mansi language - Ob-Ugric language from 
the sub-subgroup of Ugric languages from the subgroup of Finno-Ugric 
languages of Uralic languages. Mansi people call their language <mansy>. 
There are about 7 600 speakers of this language (1980). They live also in 
Khant-Mansi Autonomous Okrug of the Russian Federation, Siberia, with the 
administrative center the town of Khant-Mansijsk. Mansi has four dialects, of 
which the northern is the most spoken (about the town of Sosva). From the 
other dialects Tavda is practically extinkt, and Konda is not longer spoken 
by young people. The literary Mansi is based on the northern dialect.
	It ought to be mentioned, that Hungarian <magyar>, Khant (Ostyak) 
<khanty> and Mansi (Vogul) <mansy> are the only spoken Ugric languages in the 
world.
				Regards : Plamen M.

In article >, Cosmin Corbea > wrote
:

> T.M.Lutas wrote:
> > 
> 
> [...]
> 
> > 
> > In your opinion, is communism, irrespective of its practicality, a moral
> > system or an immoral system? Why?
> 
> Those are badly formulated questions. In order to have a meaningful 
> discussion, a few definitions should be agreed on first. What is your
> understanding of the word "communism"? What is your understanding of 
> "morality"? What rules do youuse to say whether a thing is moral or not? 
> You can only say "communism (or capitalism, or byciclism) is moral/immoral 
> BASED ON THOSE CRITERIA". If, however, you do not state the criteria, you 
> commit a reasoning error.

You may wish to consider that communism has been defined objectively as the 
public ownership of the means of production for over a century now. I don't 
wish to get sidetracked into irrelevancies such as whether Trotsky or Stalin 
had the "true" vision of communism. It's been amply demonstrated that regimes 
that self-label as communist have had many binding traits and it is this 
characteristic of common traits as well as the common results they have 
achieved that make a discussion relevant. Capitalism has been similarly
defined as private ownership of the means of production for even longer.

You seem to be ducking the question with your attitude that systems whose 
newest features have been defined for decades need to have the basic terms 
hammered out. 

> Please notice that the idea of "morality" is very much a subjective one.

No. The idea of morality is a very universal one. Perhaps certain ideas 
may fall into one moral code but not into another but morality is pretty 
much a universal. Also many basic moral terms have wide application and 
share an almost universal agreement in western civilization, something 
that I hope you agree both Romania and Hungary fall into. What needs doing 
inside the scope of conversation is a re-examination of these moral terms 
and their application inside our economic and political arrangements.

> Even if within a certain culture you may find a number of common ideas
> about morality, there is much individual variation, and there are major
> differences between cultures. Therefore your questions may not find a 
> good answer, unless you severely limit the scope of the discussion.

You may wish to focus on the differences and thus try to wave off the 
relevancy of the discussion but that's a diversionary tactic. If you are 
so concerned with definitions and their importance why didn't you suggest 
a few limiting definitions of your own so the conversation could go on in 
a substantive manner?

> > If communism is immoral, then what is the moral responsibility of those
> > who have *not* been engaged in criminal acts but have merely gone along
> > with evil for personal gain?
> 
> The same problem applies. "Evil" is a subjective (and emotional) word. You
> must define the terms.

Nit-pick. I would be happy to adopt the definition of evil that Pope John Paul 
II has. That shorthand should be enough to get the definition game out of the 
way. Now would you like to answer my questions?

DB

-- 
The Romanian Political Pages               http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus
Now available: The Romanian constitution in Romanian, an URL minder
Coming soon: An expanded Ilascu section, and victims of communism memorial!
These posts are not official PNT-cd policy unless specifically marked as such.

I am going to Hungary in September. 

 Does anyone know:

C'mon Joe, you know me better than that! Why do you think I started with BAD 
SHAPE of Erdely. The rest of it was additional, and you missed the :-) part 
too.
GK

In article >,
 > wrote:
>Gyorgy Kovacs > wrote:
>>
>>Recuperating would be great! However Erdely is in such a bad shape, that if t
he
>>Rumanian government really wanted to screw Hungary up, they would just hand i
t 
>>back on a silver plate.
>
>Pathetic!  I don't think you have a clue what point I was trying to make.
>How about checking your dictionary and see what "recuparate" means.
>
>Joe

In article >, sodrem > wrote:
>
>Joe, meg kell ezt magyaraznom Neked jobban,hala Istennek Te ezt nem
>erted! Gondolom az elet megkimelt Teged es a csaladodat az uldoztetestol.

A kozvetlen csaladomat szerencsere igen, de eleg sok kozeli ismerosomet es
tavolabbi rokonomat nem; vagy a haboru alatt vagy az 50-es evek AVOs
kezelese alatt.

>Az Edesapam kozeli csaladjaban 17 szemely pusztult el. Az Edesanyam
>csaladjaban 12. Tudomasom szerint a 29 kozeli csaladtagokbol kettot
>belelottek a Dunaba, amikor a harmadik ezt megtudta felakasztotta magat.
>A tobbi 26 ele'gett vagy agyon lotek. Az Apam kiszedte a vagon padlozat
>deszkait amig orakig alltak bezarva es kimaszott a vonat alatt a sinek
>kozott. Egy magyar csendor aki elkapta, ismerte a nagyapamat es elengedte.
>Aztan bujkalt. Anyam bujkalt. Testverem es en mint arva gyerekek
>Ormospusztan voltunk egy csaladnal ahol en 7 eves koromban mosogattam
>es tejet hordtam ki es gombat szedtem az erdoben. Kesobb egy banya
>melyeben bujkaltunk a testveremmel es egy diszno ol-ban is. 

Mar hallottam egy par hasonlo tortenetet, de ennyire szomorut meg nem!
Hidd el, semmi szimpatiam nincs azok irant, akik hozzajarultak a
csaladod es mas, hasonlo okok miatt uldozott ember szenvedesehez es
halalahoz.  Ezert is szoktam gyakran megjegyezni az ilyen temaju
cikkeimben, hogy a zsidok erzekenyseget bizonyos temakban megertem, s
meltanyolom.  Viszont Neked, Nektek is jobban kene meltanyolnotok, hogy
erre a nemet nyomas, s kesobb a megszallas nelkul aligha kerult volna
sor.  Vegulis a kornyezo kormanyok sajat hataskorukben vittek veghez
azt, amihez Magyarorszagon nemet megszallasra volt szukseg.
Persze azt is tudom, hogy tobbet is tehettek volna szuleink,
nagyszuleink, mint amit tettek.  No de utolag konnyu kibicnek lenni.

Egyebkent a fenti torteneted is mutatja, hogy a riziko ellenere, voltak
olyanok, akik bujtattak titeket, s a csendorok sem voltak mindig
olyanok, amilyeneknek azota lefesti oket a hivatalos tortenelem. Sajnos
en meg olyanrol is hallottam, hogy az ilyen embermentok ellen epp azok
tanuskodtak 45 utan a nepbirosagok elott, akik nekik koszonhettek
megmenekulesuket.  Vagy ha nem tanuskodtak ellenuk, mellettuk sem voltak
hajlandoak.  S hogy mennyire veszelyes volt a zsidok bujtatasa a
nyilasok alatti veszkorszakban, arrol meg nekem is jo gyerekkori emlekeim
voltak.  Ugyanis egy faluszeli jo ismeroseink is ezt tettek, s kozben
rettegtek egesz ido alatt.  Foleg attol, hogy mi gyerekek elpofazzuk azt
valahol.

>Ezer meg ezer storyk vannak, mind igaz, - - Tehat NPA cikkei karosak
>mert bantanak [nem csak engem!], mert rosszindulatuan hazudik, mert
>"divison"-t okoz. En magyar vagyok ma is, faj ha arra gondolok, hogy a
>csaladunk minden tagja milyen buszke nagy magyar volt. Volt koztuk
>gazda,foldbirtokos,malmos,zenetanar,pek,bor kereskedo,festo muvesz,
>ugyved,postamester,tegla munkas es kis gyerekek.

Szerintem itt a mar emlitett -- es ertheto -- szupererzekenyseged miatt
felreerted Nemenyi cikkeit, amik elsosorban mitoszdongetok szerintem.
Nem emlekszem, hogy o a zsidosagot egeszeben kritizalta.  Inkabb csak
annak befolyasos tagjait s szervezeteit akik gyakran talan visszaelnek
a II. VH ota a zsidosag irant ebredt szimpatiaval a sajat szukos erdekuk
vegett.  Az ilyeneket kritizalni nem anti-szemitizmus.  Sajnos azonban
sok, egyebkent rendes zsido szarmazasu ember is olyan velemenyre
helyezkedik, hogy mindenki mas kritizalhato, de zsido nem!  Legalabbis
nem goyok altal!  Marpedig az ilyen hozzaallas szerintem eppen csak
szitja az anti-szemitizmust, hiszen a legtobb ember tisztaban van vele,
hogy jok es rosszak egyforman fordulnak elo minden faji vagy vallasi
csoportban.  A legtobb embernek eszebe sem jut messzemeno
kovetkezteteseket levonni egy kereszteny egyen vagy szekta esetleges 
gyilkossagba, vagy ongyilkossagba torkollo orultsege miatt, de ha netan
ugyanezt egy zsido egyen, vagy szekta kovetne el, akkor azt meg
kivizsgalni is vilagraszolo bun, s az anti-szemitizmus megnyilvanulasa!
(Lasd Tiszaeszlar, vagy annak a bizonyos Solomon Morelnek az esetet.)
Mielott tul messzemeno kovetkeztetest vonnal le, hadd jegyezzem meg,
hogy nekem semmi kifogasom az egesz eszlari ugyet ugy elfogadni, ahogy
azt hivatalosan is tanitjak, de ha tortenetesen az NPA altal emlitett
valtozat lenne igaz, abbol is csak legfeljebb arra kovetkeztetnek, hogy
ott egy szingularis, primitiv zsido szektarol volt szo, ami nem jellemzo
a zsido vallasra ugyanugy, mint amit rev. Jim Jones muvelt Johnstownban
sem jellemzo a keresztenysegre.  Ami viszont fel szokott haboritani az
az arrogancia, amivel sok zsido kizarolagos jogot akar formalni abbol,
hogy a zsidokra vonatkozo tortenelmet "hivatalosan" tanitsa, ill.
interpretalja.  Aki pedig kerdesesse teszi az ilyen hivatalosnak
kikialtott tortenelmet, arra pedig kigyot-bekat kiabalnak uton-utfelen.
Ezt a hozzaallast nem tudom elkepzelni mas nepek tortenelmevel
kapcsolatban.

>Remelem, hogy sikerult egy kicsit megmagyarazni, hogy en honnan
>indulok ki.

Igen, kar hogy mindjart nem igy kezdted.  Remelem Te is megerted az en 
hozzaallasomat.

Koszonom az oszinte szavakat,
P. Jozsi

Gyorgy Kovacs > wrote:
>
>Recuperating would be great! However Erdely is in such a bad shape, that if th
e
>Rumanian government really wanted to screw Hungary up, they would just hand it
 
>back on a silver plate.

Pathetic!  I don't think you have a clue what point I was trying to make.
How about checking your dictionary and see what "recuparate" means.

Joe

Servusz Mayarórszág!
Most írok elöször magyarúl. Nem is akkarok egy hibamentes szöveget
irni, hanem akkarnek magyarul tanulni es a magyar kolturaéletben
beavatkozni. Arnold Szathmáry az én nevem, es Heilbronn ban élek. Nem
sokára 25 éves leszek. Magyarul nem tanultam soha írni és olvasni.
Beszelni apámtol tanultam. 

Sajnos hogy ez as egyetlen magyar newsgroup amelyeket németorszagban
lehet "fogni".

Hallo ihr ungarischen Landsleute!
Nehmt es mir bitte nicht übel, daß ich euch in deutscher Sprache
schreibe, das geht mir einfach besser von der Hand. Sehr gerne würde
ich ungarische Mails erhalten, doch kenne ich (noch) niemanden.
Wie Ihr sicherlich bemerkt habt trage ich einen ungarischen Namen.
Laßt euch davon bitte nicht beirren, ungarisch kann ich zwar
entziffern und ziemlich gut sprechen, schreiben kann ich allerdings
nicht. Alles will eben gelernt sein.
Ich bin etwas enttäscht von der Post AG, weil keine ungarische
Newsgroup angeboten wird. Gibt es überhaupt so etwas?

Tschüs
Arnold

 wrote:

> Please, please all the good ones, look around and start worrying about
> the living. Agreed that abortion should not be a means of birth
> control.
> But look it the teaming masses of Mexico City, San Paolo, the slums of
> five continents, the polluted environment, the greed of many, the
> misery
> of the living billions and you worry yourself to death over the unborn?
> Such good people! --- The realist - Mark

Allowing extermination of defenseless children is not realism!

-- 

---
Ivan Marinov - Maximilian Valenski
---



---
"The Western world has lost its civil courage, both as a whole, 
and separately, in each country, each government, each 
political party, and of course in the UN. I have spent all my 
life under a Communist regime, and I will tell you that a society 
without any objective scale is a terrible one indeed. But a 
society with no other scale but the legal one is not quite worthy
of man either." (A. I. Solzhenitsyn)
---

I am vacationing in Hungary in September.

Does anyone know:

I am vacationing in Hungary in September.

Does anyone know:

        1. The address of Krisztina Egerszegi's restaurant.

        2. Where I can purchase a Tarogato (at a reasonable price).

        3. Are Hungarian electric model-trains available.

Plerase e-mail me at >

In article >,
Ivan Marinov  > wrote:
| Istvan Szucs wrote:
| 
| > Without getting ito the issue of whether unborn children is
| > a contradiction of terms, I don't know any organization that
| > is for the daeth of fetuses. Have you ever seen ads that
| > encourage abortions? I've seen enjoy coca cola, and have you
| > had your break today, but I've never seen - enjoy - or have
| > an abortion, or have you had your abortion this year.
| 
| There are many organizations that make aggressive propaganda in favor 
| of abortions. They don't have ads as Coca Cola has, but this doesn't 
| change anything.

In what way do they encourage abortions? (vs the right to
have abortions)

 These movements are responsible for millions of mass 
| exterminated unborn persons every year.

FOr now let's put aside unborn persons. That has been
discusssed, and I am willing to discuss it again, but let's
concentrate on the question whether they are encouraging or
glorifying etc abortions or not.

 They call themselves ignorantly  
| "pro-choice", (Hitler, Lenin and Stalin wasn't smart enough to invent 
| this absurd terminology...), but we Christians prefer calling them with 
| their real name: "pro-death".
| 
| --
huh? What does Hitler and Stalin has to do with this. WHat
kind of choice did they encourage?
 
You do not speak on behalf of all Christians. I know many
Christians who are pro abortion rights. That is that while
they don'tthink abortions are good (not many ppl think they
are) they respect one's choice. They are pro life and pro
choice at the same time .

Istvan

 () wrote:

>>Recuperating would be great! However Erdely is in such a bad shape, that if t
he
>>Rumanian government really wanted to screw Hungary up, they would just hand i
t 
>>back on a silver plate.

>Pathetic!  I don't think you have a clue what point I was trying to make.
>How about checking your dictionary and see what "recuparate" means.

Sorry Joe, but it seems to me you don't have a clear point this time.
Tinca's interview for Magyar Nemzet was not necessarily conducted in
English and ,therefore, "recuperating Transylvania" might be just
Shafir's literatim translation from Romanian (BTW, a careful reading
should reveal that Shafir's source is, apparently, de Romanian daily
"Evenimentul Zilei").

Regarding the meaning of "recuperate," my dictionary says: 1.to regain
health or strength; 2.to recover from loss, as of money; 3.to obtain
again after loss; recover; 4.to restore to vigor and health.--Syn: see
RECOVER. From Latin ,re--back + capere--to take.

The meanings are the same as in Romanian, although #3 is probably the
most common one.  

Regards,

Liviu Iordache

 wrote:


>Az Edesapam kozeli csaladjaban 17 szemely pusztult el. Az Edesanyam
>csaladjaban 12. Tudomasom szerint a 29 kozeli csaladtagokbol kettot
>belelottek a Dunaba, amikor a harmadik ezt megtudta felakasztotta magat.
.........
>Ezer meg ezer storyk vannak, mind igaz, - - Tehat NPA cikkei karosak
>mert bantanak [nem csak engem!], mert rosszindulatuan hazudik, mert
>"divison"-t okoz.

Nagyon sajnalom, hogy felreertest szult tobb cikkem. En minden genocide
ellen irtam, minden fizikai megsemmisites es terror ellen. A fenti tor-
tenet szomoru es szegyene az emberisegnek. Annak az emberisegnek, amely
all mindenfele emberbol, mindenfele vallasbol. Pont az a  celom,  hogy 
mitoszokat kenyszeritsek terdre. Amig a tortenelem egyoldaluan ir aldo-
zatokrol, addig egysegesen fellepni a gonoszsag ellen nem lehet. Ezert 
probaltam ramutatni, hogy super-man nincs. Sem goy, sem zsido! A diviziot
azok okozzak, akik megbekeles helyett  a  mult  szornyusegeit  probaljak 
egyoldaluan a mai emberek nyakaba varrni, holott nagyreszuk nem is elt az 
adott szornyu idoben. De ugyanakkor a nemreg tortent gonoszsag kiszolgaloi
akik sok esetben a mai rendszerekben uralmon vannak, vedelmet kapnak olya-
noktol is, akiknek lenne kotelesseguk az ilyen rezsimek tamadasa. 

Szeretnek dialogusra torekedni, de az csak oszinte tortenelemanalizacio
folytan lehetseges. Amig a mult nincs tisztazva, addig a jovo is kerde-
ses. Sajnalom, hogy a cikk szerzojenek csaladja szenvedett a multban es 
sajnalom azokat is, akik nem tudtak raferni mondjuk a Kasztner-vonatjara,
mert nem volt eleg penzuk. Sajnalom azokat akiket sziberiaba hurcoltak 
meghalni, es sajnalom azokat is, akik degeszre tomtek zsebuket a haboru 
utan a Hitlernek utalt penzek kamataibol. A tortenelem nem oly egyszeru, hogy
egy - ket jol beidomitott sorral elintezzuk. Ha ezt tesszuk, ugy a jovoben 
a tomegek nem fogjak megerteni az elkovetkezendo genocide miertjet. Es ez
gondolom nagyobb diviziot fog szulni, mint a felreertett cikkeim.

NPA.

 (Istvan Szucs) wrote:
>| Iain Walker wrote:
 
>| > I think you're forgetting some basic definitions here.  Military action
>| > carried out BY the United States is called "tactical strike",
>| > "peacekeeping", "restoration of authority", or (yes) "war"; military
>| > action carried out AGAINST the United States is called "terrorism".

>It is also 1) directed in its target2) precedes a declaration of war by a
>gov't - so the original article is just plain bullshit.

This coming from the country that posted military units along the Texas
Mexico border and carried out raids until the Mexican Government declared war 
in order to extend the US border west of Texas to the Pacific.  And did you 
declare war on Libya before bombing it?  How about Vietnam? or Cuba? or
Somalia? ...

Like I said before, the US government has quite a history of state sponsored
terrorism based on its own definition of the word. 

Clean up your own act before you start a crusade to clean up the rest of the
world.

Geoff

-- 
E.G. Engelbrecht                            School of Mechanical Engineering
E-Mail:      Cranfield University, U.K.
   
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      (o)

In article >,
E.G.Engelbrecht > wrote:
|  (David Gaudine) wrote:
| 
| >In war both parties can fight each other, i.e. bomb each other's military
| >bases and so on.  Terrorists hide among the civilian population, giving
| >no target for retaliation.
| 
| Does this make the resistance fighters of World War II
terrorists?

As much as they attacked civilians and civilian targets, yes.

| 
| >In an all-out war, sooner or later somebody will probably win.  Terrorists
| >just cause senseless death and destruction, and are unlikely to ever
| >accomplish anything for their own people.  Other than making them look bad.
| 
| On the contrary these people made an impact.  They slowed the Germans down
| and forced them to devote resources that would have otherwise been used again
st
| the Russians, British Commonwealth and American forces.
| 

SO they were attacking military targets..., during a war...

That places thenm far apart from those attackng civilians in
peacetime.

Istvan

 

>Bocs, de tenyuleg nem ertem mire nem emlekszel. Arra hogy
>nyilvanosan eliteltem a feljelentoidet? Hogy maganlevelben
>felajanlottam hogy alairok nylatkozatot? Ezek nyilvanos
>resze a forumban megjelent a maganleveleket is
>elokereshetem...

Es kozben ott vagtal, ahol tudtal. A szavak ingyen vannak, a
tetteknek viszont sullyuk van. Ha tenyleg oszinte vagy, ugy 
annak szellemeben fejezed be irasodat, ahogy elkezdted. De 
ezt a tovabbiakban ugyis latni fogom.

NPA.

Andras Kornai > wrote:

>>satisfied myself that NPA has not been denied due process.

and Joe Pannon answered:

>Well, that settles it then, right Peter? ;-)

Sure Joe! Justice was served. Mr. Kornai's justice! That is!

NPA.

In article > Peter Szaszvari,
 writes:

1.
   >Egyszeruen elmeleti problemaim vannak. 

2.
   >A feljelentgeto torzult szemelyisegu ember.

3.
   >A feljelentokre koncentralva szemelol tevesztjuk a fo bajt.
   >..a rendszer .... ROSSZ.

4.
   >Rossz emberek mindig lesznek es csak jo rendszerek ved-
   >hetnek meg toluk.

Mivel te ugyis elmentel vitorlazni szoljon a tobbieknek ez itt
arrol,  hogy esetleg te vagy az, aki nem kello mertekben
hasznalja ki az agysejtjei altal nyujtott -"felettebb szukos"-
lehetosegeket sem. ;-)

Nincs jo rendszer, csak rossz es rosszabb rendszerek vannak.
Ugyanis a rendszerek azert jonnek letre, mert a kozossegek
merete tullepte azon kereteket, ahol termeszetes uton maga
a kozosseg tudja kezelni sajat problemait. Ezert jon letre a
Rendszer, amely nem termeszetes (tehat nem lehet tokeletes,
mert a termeszetes rendszeren kivul all).

A rendszernek  mar ontorvenyei vannak, amik fontosabbak a
rendszer szamara, mint azok a problemak, amik megoldasara
a rendszer letrejott.

Egy rendszer (burokracia) elsosorban a sajat, *belso* proble-
maival  van elfoglalva, meg azzal, hogy sajat maga szamara
steril feladatokat talaljon. Azokat a feladatokat, amelyek meg-
oldasara letrehoztak (kulso problemak)  csak kenyszer hatasara,
es az energiai toredekenek raforditasaval hajlando foglalkozni.
Szelso, optimalis esetben egyaltalan nem foglalkozik kulso prob-
lemakkal, ez a burokracia tiszta, idealis formaja.

Konkluzio tehat: nem is lehet tokeletes, jo rendszert csinalni.

Folyomanya:  Idealis, jo rendszerben valo gondolkodas a burok-
rata, a diktator vagy a nem tul intelligens, naiv idealistak szo-
kasa. A te esetedben ez raadasul marxista csokeveny lehet (nem
hiszem, hogy Platonon, Morus Tamason nottel fel), ideje lenne mar
leselejtezni az ideologiai eszkoztaradbol. Valoszinuleg ezt a libi
haverjaid sem nezik jo szemmel, nekik is tre. 

A feljelento resze a rendszernek. Ha a rendszeren jobbitani
akarok, akkor a legdurvabb reszeit tamadom, nyesegetem.
A feljelento egzisztencialis kicsinalasaval nagyot lehet ut-
ni a rendszeren, mint moralis ertelemben (a rendszernek lel-
kiismeretfurdalasa van, minel embertelenebb, annal inkabb
moralizal, probalja igazolni lepeseit), mint azzal, hogy a
feljelentok, a rendszer legszemetebb reszei nem erezhetik
tokeletes biztonsagba magukat. A rendszer humanoldalrol a leg-
konnyebben megfoghato, mert gyarlo emberek alkotjak.  A ma-
sik ut fenntrol vezet(ne). Azzal az a baj, hogy aki a rendszer fole
keveredik, az mar inkabb hasznalni szereti a rendszert, nem
megjavitani. Ez ervenyes a demokraciara is. 

>Szemelyes pelda:
>Svajcban dolgozom, de statuszom nem engedi meg, hogy felesegem is itt legyen. 
>Itt volt. Feljelentettek (szemelyes okbol). Felesegemet ket evre kitiltottak 
>Svajcbol. Tudom ki a feljelento (rendorseg bevallotta), de nem haragszom ra.

Mivel (azt hiszem) ismerem a teljes tortenetet (de nem fogom a tob-
biekkel megosztani), a konluziodat kicsit santanak talaltam:

>Haragszom viszont az aldatlan szabalyokra, melyek ilyen felemas, 
>torvenytelensegre csabito helyzetet teremtenek.

Meg lehetett volna talalni a letezo legalis megoldast (van), 
de szerintem nem is probalkoztatok vele.  A konnyebb, illegalis
megoldast valasztottatok.

>Uraim, hasznaljuk az agyunkat!

Megfontolando tanacs....

Tamas

In article >,
Peter A. Nemenyi > wrote:
|   
| 
| >Bocs, de tenyuleg nem ertem mire nem emlekszel. Arra hogy
| >nyilvanosan eliteltem a feljelentoidet? Hogy maganlevelben
| >felajanlottam hogy alairok nylatkozatot? Ezek nyilvanos
| >resze a forumban megjelent a maganleveleket is
| >elokereshetem...
| 
| Es kozben ott vagtal, ahol tudtal. A szavak ingyen vannak, a
| tetteknek viszont sullyuk van. Ha tenyleg oszinte vagy, ugy 
| annak szellemeben fejezed be irasodat, ahogy elkezdted. De 
| ezt a tovabbiakban ugyis latni fogom.
| 

Hol vagtalak, es milyen tettekrol beszelsz? Semmifele
szandekom nem volt teged "vagni"  es nem is tudom hogy
vagtalak volna, mivel meg mail kozelben sem voltam harom
hete. Igenis szandekomban all es allt segiteni, es nem ertem
hogy mit mondtam vagy tettem amit kifogasolsz.


Istvan

In article >,
E.G.Engelbrecht > wrote:
|  (Istvan Szucs) wrote:
| Mexico border and carried out raids until the Mexican Government declared war
 
| in order to extend the US border west of Texas to the Pacific.  And did you 
| declare war on Libya before bombing it?  How about Vietnam? or Cuba? or
| Somalia? ...
| 
| Like I said before, the US government has quite a history of state sponsored
| terrorism based on its own definition of the word. 
| 
| Clean up your own act before you start a crusade to clean up the rest of the
| world.
| 
| Geoff

SWhen did I say I supported those policies? In what way am I
resonsible for them?
In what way does one side make other injustices ok?

BTW you are writing from the UK right?

;)

Istvan

In article >,  (Istvan 
Szucs) writes:

>Does this make the resistance fighters of World War II
>terrorists?

>As much as they attacked civilians and civilian targets, yes.

Fair enough. Of course this makes the USA the biggest terrorist of all
times.

In article >,  > wrote:
| In article >,  (Istva
n Szucs) writes:
| 
| >Does this make the resistance fighters of World War II
| >terrorists?
| 
| >As much as they attacked civilians and civilian targets, yes.
| 
| Fair enough. Of course this makes the USA the biggest terrorist of all
| times.
| 


Oh?

Istvan

Panonescu wrote

>I love this!
>
>>ROMANIA FEARS NATO BASES IN HUNGARY. Defense Minister Gheorghe Tinca
>>said in an interview with the Hungarian daily Magyar Nemzet that his
>>country fears that the setting up of NATO bases on Hungarian territory
>>might encourage "Hungarian extremist forces," the daily Evenimentul
>>zilei reported on 24 July. Tinca said these forces might believe the
>>NATO presence would make it possible for them to achieve "their decades-
>>long dream" of "recuperating Transylvania." -- Michael Shafir
>
>I wonder if this Tinca fellow was an English teacher in his previous
>life.  But in a way, he is right!  I am, too, for recuperating
>Transylvania!
>
>Panonescu

You haven't heard anything yet.
Wait until you hear some of the gems put out by people now in
power, "personalities"  that are rated as more inteligent than
poor Mr. Tinca - who, by the way, has all the excuses, being a
man in uniform ... :-)

Don't know whether you understand romanian - if you do, check
"Bula demnitarului de supt poala dealului", in the weekly "Catavencu".
You'll have a good laugh.
 
td
..................................................................
Noi rareori gindim, necum sa experimentam
			Ion Iliescu, presedinte, 1990-1996

Istvan Szucs wrote:

> In what way do they encourage abortions? (vs the right to
> have abortions)

By making so called pro-choice (=pro-death) propaganda.

> huh? What does Hitler and Stalin has to do with this. WHat
> kind of choice did they encourage?

The choice of exterminating or non-ecterminating millions of people.

> You do not speak on behalf of all Christians. I know many
> Christians who are pro abortion rights.

It's their right, but I think they are wrong. Most Christians are 
strongly pro-life, as abortion cannot be reconcilied with the basic 
Christian principles.

> That is that while
> they don'tthink abortions are good (not many ppl think they
> are

many people think they are good, read talk.abortion

>) they respect one's choice.

Respect? Then why they don't respect Hitler's choice to exterminate the 
whole Jewish people? It was Hitler's CHOICE, he was elected 
democratically, so any person speaking against Hitler is in reality not 
respecting Hitler's rights? 

> They are pro life and pro
> choice at the same time .

It's nonsense. You cannot be 100 % black and 100 % white at the same 
time.

-- 

Ivan Marinov - Maximilian Valenski
---



---
"The Western world has lost its civil courage, both as a whole, 
and separately, in each country, each government, each 
political party, and of course in the UN. I have spent all my 
life under a Communist regime, and I will tell you that a society 
without any objective scale is a terrible one indeed. But a 
society with no other scale but the legal one is not quite worthy
of man either." (A. I. Solzhenitsyn)
---
PGP Key Fingerprint = 9D 85 B7 63 7D 85 14 C1  4C 36 CB 5E 92 70 FE E3
---

In article >,
Ivan Marinov  > wrote:
| Istvan Szucs wrote:
| 
| > In what way do they encourage abortions? (vs the right to
| > have abortions)
| 
| By making so called pro-choice (=pro-death) propaganda.
| 

Pro choice and pro deatd are not the same. 

It is different to say  DO X or yuohave the right to do X.
If you are right then the present laws are pro smoking, pro
drinking, etc.


| > huh? What does Hitler and Stalin has to do with this. WHat
| > kind of choice did they encourage?
| 
| The choice of exterminating or non-ecterminating millions
of people.

No.. they offered no such choice. 
They did not say you have the right to kill X. He said kill X.
| 
| > You do not speak on behalf of all Christians. I know many
| > Christians who are pro abortion rights.
| 
| It's their right, but I think they are wrong. Most Christians are 
| strongly pro-life, as abortion cannot be reconcilied with the basic 
| Christian principles.

That is your opinion.
I know lots of christians who disagree witgh you. 
| 
| > That is that while
| > they don'tthink abortions are good (not many ppl think they
| > are
| 
| many people think they are good, read talk.abortion

frankly I didn't read it. In waht respect did they think
it's good? Is it healthy? Pleasurable? Profitable? 

| 
| >) they respect one's choice.
| 
| Respect? Then why they don't respect Hitler's choice to exterminate the 
| whole Jewish people? It was Hitler's CHOICE, he was elected 
| democratically, so any person speaking against Hitler is in reality not 
| respecting Hitler's rights? 

That is absurd. If I allowed that fetuses are human, the
parallel would still be wrong. I have above mentioned a few
reasons. If there was a mandate for abortion I would be
against that too... Noone currently says by law you must
abort a fetus.

| 
| > They are pro life and pro
| > choice at the same time .
| 
| It's nonsense. You cannot be 100 % black and 100 % white at the same 
| time.

That's true but you can be pro life and pro choice at the
same time.
You can say I encourage you not to have an abortion (hence
be pro life - or for life)but I respect your choice and
allow you to act on your choice - hence be pro choice.

In article >,  (Istvan 
Szucs) writes:
>In article >,  > wrote:
>> In article >,  (Istv
an Szucs) writes:

>>>>Does this make the resistance fighters of World War II
>>>>terrorists?

>>>As much as they attacked civilians and civilian targets, yes.

>> Fair enough. Of course this makes the USA the biggest terrorist of all
>> times.

>Oh?

I take it you have never heard of Hiroshima and Nagasaki..

 (alex) wrote:

>Newsgroups:
>soc.culture.russian,soc.culture.ukrainian,relcom.talk,alt.visa.us,alt.visa,soc
.culture.usa,soc.culture.e
>urope,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.po
litics.correct,alt.politics.refor
>m,soc.culture.german,soc.culture.belgium,soc.culture.austria,soc.culture.franc
e,soc.culture.magyar
>,soc.culture.polish,soc.culture.romanian,soc.culture.czecho-slovak,soc.cultur.
australia,alt.current-e
>vents.ukraine,alt.current-events.russia,ukr.politics

>Subject: SHOULD WE LET EX-SOVIETS INTO THE WEST? (was: Re: visas, sovoks and 
>everything (was: Some statistics about Russia from WWW)

>In article >,  says...

 (alex) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>In article >,  says...
>>>>
 (alex) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Then what would happen is you would have more of those "Sovoks" 
>>>>>coming to America!
>>>>
>>>>Cut the crap, alex. If you can. Doing comparative anatomical research
>>>>is not my most favourite pastime, but I have strong feeling that
>>>>"sovoks" and "bydlo" like me or like that hypothetical dude from
>>>>Magadan are more interesting to the US of A than you yourself.
>>>>Moneywise that is.
>>
>>>Comedy aside. You are very, very wrong.
>>
>>Spelling, grammar, and all that anti-American shit aside - don't be
>>that touchy. The majority of people who are able to bitch about the
>>American consular bureaucracy here share a very interesting
>>characteristic of paying (or being able to do that in their immediate
>>future - right after the graduation) somewhat more tax dollars to the
>>US of A than your median (or even average) true-blue American-born
>>American. So much for the communist ethics and education.
>>
>>For the record - not long ago the Dept of State started a shameful
>>practice of using local labour in foreign countries. That is - a
>>couple years ago the consulates were staffed with those who are known
>>as "peons" - American students and graduates who wanted to practice in
>>foreign languages, lifetyles, and diplomatic issues. Right now almost
>>all the eomplyees at the embassies are locals, which effectively means
>>that the money allocated to the embassies and collected for consular
>>services are in large part funnelled to local economies, thus
>>depriving American citizens.
>>
>>Now back to your questions:
>>
>>>"... are more interesting to the US of A...moneywise that is."
>>>As opposed to citizens born and educated here?
>>>I should think and hope not!
>>>In any case, what would that interest really be?
>>
>>To further the achievements of what is known as "America, America from
>>sea to shining sea".

>My! Such a deep regard for America, those Ex-Soviets from Russia have!
>I seem to read different things here though and continuously, wonder why?


>>
>>>Somewhat voyeristic as in a zoo?
>>>Do people from Russia usually bring a lot of money 
>>>(along with their splendid attitude and communist work ethic) to this countr
y?
>>>This is, to be polite about it, rather doubtful.
>>
>>It sure is if you don't know shit about "non-resident aliens" from
>>Russia.
>>
>>>Why do they want to *leave* there and come *here*?
>>
>>To make more money, I guess? It might be a surprise to you, but the
>>majority of Americans going to Russia go there with exactly the same
>>purpose.


>A "majority" of Americans do *not* go to Russia, "to make more money,"
>despite your saying and implying that it is such a great and wonderful land of
 
>opportunity.
>You Russians must do better at keeping those American wetbacks from 
>sneaking across the borders!
>They will ruin your country!


>>
>>>Why is it incumbent on Americans, and as Yelena suggested unfair,
>>>if we do not make it as convienient as possible for Russians to come here?
>>
>>What a spelling.


>You understood. 
>So what?


>> Anyway, what makes you think I want it made "as
>>convenient as possible"? Just make it as bad as it is for Americans
>>visiting Russia, not worse than that.

>Americans are not responsible for Russia's bad roads, transportation
>systems, low income levels and corruption and wars.
>Yes I've heard it said before, the West started the Cold War 
>with the peace loving Soviet Union and everything is the fault of the West,
>so we, in the West, owe them for it and should make up for it.
>Despite what you might want to imply, the status of Russian
>citizens is *not* the same, nor should it be, as that of US citizens.
>Russia is a third world country.
>There are a lot of good, hard-working people from many places coming
>here to the West who do *not* put forth the proposition that 
>America's laws should be changed to allow more people from *their*
>country to come in and have the same privileges
>as do citizens. I only hear you Russians saying things like that.
>Why?

>>
>>>The *primary* interests of America should be geared to the interests
>>>of (surprise! surprise!) Americans, not  *any* foreigners who exhibit 
>>>a anti-Western, anti-American bias as was rather obviously exhibited by 
>>>the previous poster, "Yelena".
>>
>>>It is also the flavor of many of her other posts.
>>
>>>This was what motivated me to reply.
>>
>>>There is a very apparent sense of "entitlement" here,
>>>and worse, as shown by her pro-Russian, anti-American
>>>bias.
>>
>>Feel free to report on her to the Commission on the anti-American
>>activities (or what is its name). BTW, I'm getting more and more
>>perplexed by your writing style - do the quotes around Yelena suggest
>>something I'm missing?

>No and no.
>You are missing something more basic in this entire discussion
>oh great one.


>>
>>>Sorry if my taking the American view towards this has
>>>in any way offended you. That was not my purpose.
>>
>>No, it's all right - it happens all the time. You just want to make
>>all the working people free and happy and end up with labour camps. Or
>>try to protect some backwards countries from the onslaught of said
>>labour camps and instead almost starve these contries to death. Relax,
>>shit happens.


>I don't follow your Soviet/Sovok logic at all!!?


>>
>>>As regards your question regarding, "that hypothetical dude from
>>>Magadan," who in your infinite wisdom, you have determined without
>>>knowing anything about me, but do *know*, that any "hypotetical dude"
>>>from some Siberian hell hole in Russia is of-course,
>>>" more interesting to the US of A than," then a American citizen?!!
>>
>>Thanks for the compliment. As of the dude - it just takes more skills
>>and guts to go from Magadan to the USA than crapping on a place a lot
>>of people call their home from some shit hole in the state of NY.

>Perhaps they should have put more of thier wonderful
>Russian "skills and guts" into better roads, living standards,
> etc.. rather then into weaponry and Chechna etc..

>Don't go there or to *any*, American "shithole" as you say.
>Spare yourself and other Russians the horror of America,
>this way, you won't have to demand special privlages for Russians
>ahead of people from everywhere else.

>>
>>>Is it merely because I am *only* a American, and he is a Russian,
>>>therefore, he is more important and of much more interest to America,
>>>then the citizens of the country that built, support and are loyal to
>>>it? 
>>
>>No. Next question, please. Well, OK, back to this one - see my
>>rantings about the tax dollars above.
>>
>>>Such trash we are, and exist merely to serve Soviets.....
>>
>>Wake up, dude - the Soviet Union is no more, so you have to redefine
>>your raison d'etre.

>People of a Soviet mentality who regard themselves as equal and 
>more then equal to the citizens of any country they wish to go to.

>>
>>>I read no discussion of this in your response to this, "Yelena's" attitude
>>>towards this country.
>>>I believe that speaks eloquently enough on your part.
>>>You and others dislike America, yet you wish to come here and feel,
>>>you and other Russians should be able to do so more easily, because it is mo
re
>>>inconvienient and difficult to travel in Russia, costs more for a Russian
>>>to do so and this is why America is unfair and no good from a Russian
>>>point of view. That and we are not as intrinsicaly as "interesting" or as 
>>>wonderful as Russians are. I can't believe the attitude!
>>
>>Nah. Stop torturing yourself - just get some clue through improving
>>your reading skills.
>>
>>>Charming.
>>
>>>Have a good day,
>>
>>And you don't cough, too (as we say it in Russia).
>>
>>>alex
>>
>>Cheers
>>
>>Dima
>>time zone changes suck
>>

>Here is another example of a Ex-Soviet Russian, posting from Australia, who
>makes a threat to an American citizen.
>Evidently, he already has or will get a visa to come to America.


>Begin:

>Path: 
>news.albany.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!nntp.primenet.co
m!news.cais.net!hunt
>er.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!munnari.OZ
.AU!mel.dit.csiro.
>au!atmos.dar.CSIRO.AU!val
>From: LEVCHENKO Vladimir >
>Newsgroups: soc.culture.ukrainian
>Subject: Re: !DAN KOROLYSHYN & GEORGE RYCAR ADOPTED!
>Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 17:13:20 +1000
>Organization: CSIRO DIT ( Melb. )
>Lines: 31
>Message-ID: >
>References: > >
>NNTP-Posting-Host: atmos.dar.csiro.au
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
>In-Reply-To: > 



>On 17 Jul 1996, GRycar wrote:

>> Max Pizdur;
>>                As usual your eloquence has no equal and your stupidity is
>> only exceeded by your duplicity. More simlpy stated, you are a moron of no
>> good and little talent who is destructive because you are incompetent.
>> Hint, your lack of ethics and direspect for the truth is contributory to
>> your stupidity.
>> 
>>               See Pizdur invective is not difficult to master but then I
>> am not prevaricating when I question your critical acumen. It is lacking,
>> try again.
>> 
>> 
>>                                              George

>That's enough, George. You lousy bastard have gone too far. First you 
>moron are claiming no knowledge and comprehension of Russian, but then you 
>are fiddling with Max Pyziur name with a clear aim to insult him, his 
>parents and all his family, thus showing quite a good though prevaricated 
>command of Russian. 
>I openly notify you that during my next visit to US East coast which is 
>scheduled somewhere in Spring (your Autumn, moron), I'll come in person 
>to kick a shit out of you, arshole, if somebody else and Max himself not 
>do it before me. I allocated time for this and put you on the waiting list.
>You better go hiding NOW, you shithead bastard, if you don't want to get a 
>good lesson of a decent net behaviour.

>VL



>  Don't be a fool, fellow. There are no differensies between "bydlo" from any 
countryes.
>Nick.

td > wrote:

>You haven't heard anything yet.
>Wait until you hear some of the gems put out by people now in
>power, "personalities"  that are rated as more inteligent than
>poor Mr. Tinca - who, by the way, has all the excuses, being a
>man in uniform ... :-)

For what is worth, at least officially Mr. Tinca is not a man in
uniform.

Liviu Iordache

Istvan Szucs wrote:

> frankly I didn't read it. In waht respect did they think
> it's good? Is it healthy? Pleasurable? Profitable?

THey think that abortion is normal medical procedure, and nothing more.

> That's true but you can be pro life and pro choice at the
> same time.

But I don't want to be "pro-choice". We need no choice.

> You can say I encourage you not to have an abortion (hence
> be pro life - or for life)but I respect your choice and
> allow you to act on your choice - hence be pro choice.

I don't respect people doing abortions. I'm not "pro-choice" We need no 
choice.

-- 

Ivan Marinov - Maximilian Valenski
---



---
"The Western world has lost its civil courage, both as a whole, 
and separately, in each country, each government, each 
political party, and of course in the UN. I have spent all my 
life under a Communist regime, and I will tell you that a society 
without any objective scale is a terrible one indeed. But a 
society with no other scale but the legal one is not quite worthy
of man either." (A. I. Solzhenitsyn)
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PGP Key Fingerprint = 9D 85 B7 63 7D 85 14 C1  4C 36 CB 5E 92 70 FE E3
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