Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 952
Copyright (C) HIX
1997-03-25
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind)  60 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind)  76 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind)  21 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
7 HL-Action: write Albright (mind)  183 sor     (cikkei)
8 HL-Action: write AL GORE (mind)  90 sor     (cikkei)
9 HL-Action: write Albright (mind)  183 sor     (cikkei)
10 HL-Action: write AL GORE (mind)  90 sor     (cikkei)
11 From Another Perspective (mind)  42 sor     (cikkei)
12 The USA translation market and YOU (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind)  21 sor     (cikkei)
14 [Fwd: Re: numerus clausus in the U.S.] (mind)  102 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind)  116 sor     (cikkei)
16 Easter Services (mind)  40 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: HUNGARY.0948..970321 (mind)  38 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

 on Mar 23 21:41:34 EST 1997 in HUNGARY #950:

>At 07:26 PM 3/22/97 -0500, Ferenc Novak rote:
>
>>P.S.  Can anyone tell me in what year the Numerus Clausus laws  were
>passed?
>
>        Yes, 1920. ESB

Thanks.

Ferenc
+ - Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Sam Stowe wrote:
>
> In article >, Denes BOGSANYI
> > writes:
>
> >If my understanding is correct you are highlighting the overwhelming =
> >hold by individuals and firms labelled as "Jewish" on Hungarian economic =
> >and cultural life.
> >The extreme right was strengthening and the government was trying to =
> >placate them by using means which had antecedents in other countries =
> >such as England and the USA even if these were not officially supported =
> >there.
> >
> >Regards
> >D=E9nes=20
> >
> >
>
> See what I mean? He's not going to stop until he's transferred blame for what
> post-war Hungarian governments chose to do to the country's Jewish population
.
> Sam Stowe
>
> "If you hear a Southerner say, 'Hey, y'all, watch this!',
> move away from him immediately. They're usually
> the last words he'll ever utter..."
> -- from "Southbound," a primer for our Northern friends
> contemplating a move to the promised land.

No Sam, you didn4t ( want to?, I don4t want to believe that )
understand.

There is NOTHING that could justify what happened. The quotation was
referring to a remark of Marina, ( POSSIBLY ) implying understanding
with discrimination at the Ivy League university, and here at Columbia
with a larger (  than in Hungary ) size of the Jewish population ). I
was trying to correct THIS statement ( if I got it right ), at least
percentwise.

a) IMHO and at the present state of the discussion the size of
the         population should not justify discrimination, not even in
the           republic ( which I love ) with justice and freedom for
all.
b) as far as proportions are concerned there appears to have been a
   problem which was then misused by the wright.

As to b) I think we would have to discuss the problem, how to handle
and organize equal CHANCES for different segments of society. How about
the economic prerequisites for an admittance to good universities?
How about Afroamericans? Hispanics? etc. I admire what is being done
by well-off people via foundations etc in this field. Still I think
there remains a problem.

Please forgive me, if I try to explain with American exemples. This is
not intended to say, < see, how nasty, YOU are >, but rather since it
appears to me that many list members are more familiar with the
situation over there. I assure you, we have enough problems here, too.
And even more in the former colonies of the USSR.
Take care!
Miklos
+ - Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Sam Stowe writes:   (most deleted)

 The Hungarian situation during this time was far more serious --
>numerus clausus was the law of the land and it was systematically enforced by
>the government.

No it was not.

Regards,Jeliko
+ - Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

E.S. Balogh wrote:
>
> Miklos Hoffmann:
>
> >Hello Eva,
> >also, when I recall it correctly, there was more than one  <Zsidotoer-
> >veny>.
>
>         Under the term, "zsidotorvenyek," we must understand only those
> enacted anti-Jewish laws which were passed after 1938. There were three such
> laws. The numerus clausus of 1920 was a different cup of tea because, as I
> mentioned, the word "Jewish" didn't even appear in the text.
>
> >According to what you wrote in an other note, you are worked a
> >lot on the time between the wars.
>
>         Yes, but I know a great deal more about the 1920s than the 1930s. As
> for the background on the numerus clausus. The 1920 elections (held at two
> different times due to the fact that the Romanian troops were still in
> possession of territories east of the Tisza River at the time of the
> elections) returned an exceedingly right-wing bunch of deputies. Although
> when the second elections were completed the majority of the deputies
> belonged to the Smallholders' Party and in theory at least the Smallholders'
> Party wasn't supposed to be radical as far as the party program went, the
> thinking of the deputies, right after the fall of the Hungarian Soviet
> Republic, was pretty much to the right.
>          The regime which was established after the fall of the Hungarian
> Soviet Republic called itself "kereszteny-nemzeti kurzus" during first few
> years of its existence. What the word "kereszteny" and "national" meant in
> this context is the topic of a huge historical debate but most historians
> feel that it was juxtaposed with "Jewish," and "cosmopolitan." One thing is
> sure there was widespread anti-Jewish sentiments in Hungary after the fall
> of the Hungarian Soviet Republic because of the heavy Jewish involvement in
> the leadership of that soviet experiment. Antisemitic outbursts, especially
> on university campuses, were daily occurrences: Jewish students were beaten
> up and/or their "indexes" were taken away from them which basically meant
> that their proof of ever taking an examination and passing it was down the
> drain. (Let me explain what an "index" was. It was a black little book into
> which the student himself had to write in the name of the courses he took.
> At exam time--all examinations were oral--the student had to take this
> "index" along for the professor to sign it and write in his grade.) In any
> case, while I was doing research on party politics during the fall of 1919 I
> read as many contemporary newspapers as I could lay my hands on and I became
> aware of numerous ads in the classified ads section sounding something like
> this: X.Y. (normally a very Jewish sounding name, like Izidor Kohn) has lost
> his index, please return the index for a reward of such and such to so and
> so. There were so many of these ads that eventually I came to the conclusion
> that these students "didn't lose their indexes," they were taken away from
> them!!! At one point the government had to close all the Budapest
> universities because of atrocities committed against Jewish students. And
> thus came the idea of a numerus clausus. The suggestion for it came from
> Istvan Haller, minister of education in the Teleki government, I assume
> partly because he was not exactly a philosemite and partly because of his
> desire to appease the extreme right.
>         In any case, as I pointed out earlier, the measure was most likely
> unconstitutional and against every precedent in Hungarian jurisprudence. It
> did hit the Jewish community very hard because Jewish students were indeed
> heavily represented in the universities. Suddenly their numbers could not
> exceed about five percent of the student body. Budapest's population was
> about 25% Jewish, by the way. At one point the Jewish community was thinking
> about establishing a "Jewish" university but plans fell through. A lot of
> people went abroad to study but many of them couldn't for financial reasons.
> The number of conversions suddenly became extremely large as a result of the
> happenings of 1919: instead of about 400 a year, in 1919 7,138; in 1920,
> 1,992; in 1921, 947 people converted.
>         Eventually the conversions tapered off because in good Hungarian
> fashion the numerus clausus requirements were also more or less ignored. But
> it was never abolished officially. As far as the three so-called "Jewish
> laws" are concerned they are not at all connected to the numerus clausus of
> 1920. There were no other discriminatory laws against Jews between 1920 and
> 1938. So, those laws have an entirely different origin--mostly German
> pressure directly and indirectly. But that's a different chapter and a
> different era.
>         Eva Balogh
Koeszoenet
Miklos Hoffmann
+ - Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 09:08 PM 3/24/97 -0500, Janos Zsargo wrote:
>E.Balogh wrote:
>
>>up and/or their "indexes" were taken away from them which basically meant
>>that their proof of ever taking an examination and passing it was down the
>>drain.

>This is still the practice on the Hungarian universities (or was untill
>~1993). I myself had two of them because I took so many course that I
>completly filled the first one. However, the student suppose to have
>the index only during the exam period (~1.5 months). During the regular
>term the index should be at the "Dean's office" (dekani hivatal) where
>they are compared to the proffesors' reports in order to validate the
>grades. So, even if someone loses the index, it is possible to retrieve
>his/her academic record.

        So did I have an index. And yes I know that it was supposed to be
returned to the dean's office in recent years but obviously that wasn't the
custom in 1919. And, by the way, if I may say so, it is a primitive and
stupid practice.
        ESB
+ - Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>At 09:08 PM 3/24/97 -0500, Janos Zsargo wrote:
>>E.Balogh wrote:
>>
>>>up and/or their "indexes" were taken away from them which basically meant
>>>that their proof of ever taking an examination and passing it was down the
>>>drain.
>
>>This is still the practice on the Hungarian universities (or was untill
>>~1993). I myself had two of them because I took so many course that I
>>completly filled the first one. However, the student suppose to have
>>the index only during the exam period (~1.5 months). During the regular
>>term the index should be at the "Dean's office" (dekani hivatal) where
>>they are compared to the proffesors' reports in order to validate the
>>grades. So, even if someone loses the index, it is possible to retrieve
>>his/her academic record.
>
Firstly - Thanks Eva for the informative post.  Fascinating.  Secondly
assuming the above as written by Janos to be correct information; - looks
like Hungary needs to address much more than their Health Care system.  What
a bizarre and archaic method of keeping records!  In Universities yet!

Regards to all,
Aniko
+ - HL-Action: write Albright (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:      URGENT

Background:
    The Danube lawsuit at the International Court in The Hague 
started March 3. This lawsuit will adjudicate the dispute between
Hungary and Slovakia concerning the rerouting of the Danube onto
Slovak territory.
    It is essential that we gain publicity on the lawsuit and the
support of world public opinion. Especially the support of American
politicians and leaders such as Secretary of State MADELEINE ALBRIGHT
would mean a lot for our cause.

What to do:
  Please help to persuade Secretary of State Madeleine Albright to
make a statement in favor of the Danube. Feel free to use the attached
form letters (letter #1 for Americans, letter #2 for non-Americans).
   IT IS IMPORTANT THAT ALBRIGHT FINDS THOUSANDS OF LETTERS IN HER
MAILBOX. Therefore please make a chain letter of this call for action.
Send it to at least 5 of your friends. 
  PLEASE ACT!! Please SEND EVEN SNAIL MAIL. These are more effective.
FURTHERMORE SEND COPIES OF YOUR LETTER TO: 
    Executive Assistant, Maura Harty
    Special Assistant, Carlene Ackerman
    Senior Advisor, Robert O. Boorstin (Room 7246)
    Assistant Secretary for Oceans, & International Environmental and
Scientific Affairs Bureau, Eileen B. Claussen (Room 7831)

address:
United States Secretary of State
U.S. Department of State
2201 C Street, NW
Washington, DC  20520

e-mail address of Madeleine Albright:


*************************************************************

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter #1 for Americans:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

The Honorable Madeleine Albright
United States Secretary of State
U.S. Department of State
2201 C Street, NW
Washington, DC  20520
(E-Mail:  )

RE:  First Environmental Lawsuit (Danube) in The Hague

Dear Madame Secretary:

Please accept my congratulations on your well-deserved appointment,
which to us Americans with Central European roots gives a special ray
of hope. We hope for even greater American understanding and
compassion for the people of Central Europe, for their progress and
stability.

Madame Secretary, you now have a great opportunity to set a new tone
for American policy in connection with the Danube lawsuit, which began
March 3 in The Hague. This new tone would be consistent with the US
policy of expanding Western structures to Central and Eastern Europe,
and of engaging the US more actively in helping to resolve emerging
international conflicts in the region by (1) urging your Western
European partners to assist more proactively; and (2) calling on both
parties (Hungary and Slovakia) to accept the Compromise Plan prepared
by the environmental NGOs and thereby cooperate in the quest for a
solution that can set an example for the future.

Your help in resolving the Danube problem would also be consistent
with the present US policy based on a global approach to environmental
issues and on seeking to mobilize all relevant political
(multilateral, international, non-governmental and civic society)
forces to assist in avoiding environmental catastrophes caused by
bilateral agreements drawn up by non-representative governments under
the regional policy framework formerly imposed by Moscow.

Therefore please exert your influence on the outcome of the first
international environmental lawsuit in human history. You would not be
interfering in the operation of the International Court of Justice,
but rather fulfilling an American obligation. This is because it was
the Paris Peace Treaty which set the border between Czechoslovakia and
Hungary, and it was that Treaty which named the Great Powers as the
guarantors of the integrity of the two nations' territories. The
Treaty also stated that the two nations DO NOT have the right to make
changes without the prior approval of the Great Powers. Yet in 1977,
under Soviet direction, the two nations signed a contract to move the
Danube, previously their border river, into an artificial canal on
Slovak territory. For this they neither asked nor received the
necessary approval of the Great Powers.

Madame Secretary:  The International Court of Justice must be advised
that the Moscow-initiated 1977 Contract was and is INHERENTLY INVALID,
because it is in conflict with the Paris Peace Treaty. It is both the
legal obligation and the moral duty of the United States to fulfill
her role as a guarantor of the Paris Peace Treaty. Even more
importantly, it is in the interest of the United States to make sure
that the Danube is returned to its riverbed, thereby restoring the
political and ecological stability of the region.

Madame Secretary, a single statement from you will resolve this issue.
Please make that statement.

Respectfully,

<Your name, address, title>


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter #2 for non-American citizens:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

The Honorable Madeleine Albright
United States Secretary of State
U.S. Department of State
2201 C Street, NW
Washington, DC  20520
(E-Mail:  )

RE: First Environmental Lawsuit (Danube) in The Hague

Dear Madame Secretary:

Please accept my congratulations on your well-deserved appointment,
which gives a special ray of hope to the people of Central Europe. We
hope for even greater American understanding and compassion for the
people of Central Europe, for their progress and stability.

Madame Secretary, you now have a great opportunity to set a new tone
for American policy in connection with the Danube lawsuit, which is
began March 3 in The Hague. This new tone would be consistent with the
US policy of expanding Western structures to Central and Eastern
Europe, and of engaging the US more actively in helping to resolve
emerging international conflicts in the region by (1) urging your
Western European partners to assist more proactively; and (2) calling
on both parties (Hungary and Slovakia) to accept the Compromise Plan
prepared by the environmental NGOs and thereby cooperate in the quest
for a solution that can set an example for the future.

Your help in resolving the Danube problem would also be consistent
with the present US policy based on a global approach to environmental
issues and on seeking to mobilize all relevant political
(multilateral, international, non-governmental and civic society)
forces to assist in avoiding environmental catastrophes caused by
bilateral agreements drawn up by non-representative governments under
the regional policy framework formerly imposed by Moscow.

Therefore please exert your influence on the outcome of the first
international environmental lawsuit in human history. You would not be
interfering in the operation of the International Court of Justice,
but rather fulfilling an American obligation. This is because it was
the Paris Peace Treaty which set the border between Czechoslovakia and
Hungary, and it was that Treaty which named the Great Powers as the
guarantors of the integrity of the two nations' territories. The
Treaty also stated that the two nations DO NOT have the right to make
changes without the prior approval of the Great Powers. Yet in 1977,
under Soviet direction, the two nations signed a contract to move the
Danube, previously their border river, into an artificial canal on
Slovak territory. For this they neither asked nor received the
necessary approval of the Great Powers.

Madame Secretary:  The International Court of Justice must be advised
that the Moscow-initiated 1977 Contract was and is INHERENTLY INVALID,
because it is in conflict with the Paris Peace Treaty. It is both the
legal obligation and the moral duty of the United States to fulfill
her role as a guarantor of the Paris Peace Treaty. Even more
importantly, it is in the interest of the United States to make sure
that the Danube is returned to its riverbed, thereby restoring the
political and ecological stability of the region.

Madame Secretary, a single statement from you will resolve this issue.
Please make that statement.

Respectfully,

<Your name, address, title>
+ - HL-Action: write AL GORE (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
   URGENT

Background:
  Please help to convince vice president Al Gore to make a statement
in favour for Szigetkoz. Feel free to use the attached new form
letter. Al Gore will only take notice if he receives thousands of
letters. 
  Therefore please send at least one letter every day. Furthermore
PLEASE MAKE A CHAIN LETTER OF THIS CALL FOR ACTION. Send it to
everybody on your personal mailing list and ask them to forward it to
their friends. PLEASE ACT!!

What to do: 
Please ask vice president Al Gore to make a statement in favour for
the environment of Szigetkoz. Feel free to use the attached NEW form
letter. Al Gore  will only take notice if he receives thousands of
letters. 
      SEND SEVERAL LETTERS A DAY!!! PLEASE DO NOT ONLY SEND
      THEM BY E-MAIL!  Send them even by fax or "priority
      mail".  Below are the fax number, and the priority mail
      addresses you should use. 
      In all cases, put the names of _both_ the Vice President
      _and one or another of his key aides_ on the top of the
      fax, or on the envelope address.  

key aides:
Executive Assistant to the Vice President: Heather Marabeti
Deputy Chief of Staff:                        David Strauss
Director of Political Affairs:              Karen Elizabeth Skelton

address of key aides as well as of Al Gore: 
Room 276, Old Executive Office Building
Washington, DC  20501
fax number: 202-456-7044

e-mail address of Al Gore:


*************************************************************

<date>

The Honorable Al Gore
Vice President of the United States
The White House
Washington, DC  20001
(E-Mail:  )

Dear Mr. Vice President:

On August 21, 1993, you wrote to Professor Bela Liptak about
your concern for the Danube ecosystem.  Today humankind is approaching
an important precedent:  On March 3, 1997, the International Court of
Justice started proceedings in the first international environmental
lawsuit in The Hague. 

The ICJ will decide a case involving the Danube and the destruction of
its ancient wetland region, the Szigetkoz.  This name, loosely
translated, means "region of a thousand islands,"  yet today there is
not a single island left there, because the water is gone.  

However, the implications of this case go beyond the future of just
one river or just the 400 endangered species of one ancient ecosystem.
This lawsuit will set a precedent for the whole planet and will answer
a much more basic question:  Do national governments have the right to
do as they please with our ecosystems, or does humankind as a whole
have a right to protect the rich natural treasures which belong to all
of us?

Mr. Vice President, in 1995 nine international environmental NGOs
submitted a memorial to ICJ, which its president, the Honorable
Mohammed Bedjaoui, has accepted.  A Compromise Plan was also submitted
to the Court; this Plan would guarantee the restoration of the ancient
Szigetkoz wetlands, together with fulfilling the water supply,
shipping and energy needs of the region.  For details of this Plan and
for other aspects of the lawsuit, please ask Bela Liptak or visit the
web site at:  http://www.goodpoint.com/duna.htm .

Dear Mr. Gore:  It is very important that the first international
environmental lawsuit be given the media attention it deserves. The
Foundation to Protect the Hungarian Environment can inform you of the
details.  A statement by you can guarantee that attention; please make
such a statement.

Respectfully,

<Your name, title and address>
+ - HL-Action: write Albright (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:      URGENT

Background:
    The Danube lawsuit at the International Court in The Hague
started March 3. This lawsuit will adjudicate the dispute between
Hungary and Slovakia concerning the rerouting of the Danube onto
Slovak territory.
    It is essential that we gain publicity on the lawsuit and the
support of world public opinion. Especially the support of American
politicians and leaders such as Secretary of State MADELEINE ALBRIGHT
would mean a lot for our cause.

What to do:
  Please help to persuade Secretary of State Madeleine Albright to
make a statement in favor of the Danube. Feel free to use the attached
form letters (letter #1 for Americans, letter #2 for non-Americans).
   IT IS IMPORTANT THAT ALBRIGHT FINDS THOUSANDS OF LETTERS IN HER
MAILBOX. Therefore please make a chain letter of this call for action.
Send it to at least 5 of your friends.
  PLEASE ACT!! Please SEND EVEN SNAIL MAIL. These are more effective.
FURTHERMORE SEND COPIES OF YOUR LETTER TO:
    Executive Assistant, Maura Harty
    Special Assistant, Carlene Ackerman
    Senior Advisor, Robert O. Boorstin (Room 7246)
    Assistant Secretary for Oceans, & International Environmental and
Scientific Affairs Bureau, Eileen B. Claussen (Room 7831)

address:
United States Secretary of State
U.S. Department of State
2201 C Street, NW
Washington, DC  20520

e-mail address of Madeleine Albright:


*************************************************************

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter #1 for Americans:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

The Honorable Madeleine Albright
United States Secretary of State
U.S. Department of State
2201 C Street, NW
Washington, DC  20520
(E-Mail:  )

RE:  First Environmental Lawsuit (Danube) in The Hague

Dear Madame Secretary:

Please accept my congratulations on your well-deserved appointment,
which to us Americans with Central European roots gives a special ray
of hope. We hope for even greater American understanding and
compassion for the people of Central Europe, for their progress and
stability.

Madame Secretary, you now have a great opportunity to set a new tone
for American policy in connection with the Danube lawsuit, which began
March 3 in The Hague. This new tone would be consistent with the US
policy of expanding Western structures to Central and Eastern Europe,
and of engaging the US more actively in helping to resolve emerging
international conflicts in the region by (1) urging your Western
European partners to assist more proactively; and (2) calling on both
parties (Hungary and Slovakia) to accept the Compromise Plan prepared
by the environmental NGOs and thereby cooperate in the quest for a
solution that can set an example for the future.

Your help in resolving the Danube problem would also be consistent
with the present US policy based on a global approach to environmental
issues and on seeking to mobilize all relevant political
(multilateral, international, non-governmental and civic society)
forces to assist in avoiding environmental catastrophes caused by
bilateral agreements drawn up by non-representative governments under
the regional policy framework formerly imposed by Moscow.

Therefore please exert your influence on the outcome of the first
international environmental lawsuit in human history. You would not be
interfering in the operation of the International Court of Justice,
but rather fulfilling an American obligation. This is because it was
the Paris Peace Treaty which set the border between Czechoslovakia and
Hungary, and it was that Treaty which named the Great Powers as the
guarantors of the integrity of the two nations' territories. The
Treaty also stated that the two nations DO NOT have the right to make
changes without the prior approval of the Great Powers. Yet in 1977,
under Soviet direction, the two nations signed a contract to move the
Danube, previously their border river, into an artificial canal on
Slovak territory. For this they neither asked nor received the
necessary approval of the Great Powers.

Madame Secretary:  The International Court of Justice must be advised
that the Moscow-initiated 1977 Contract was and is INHERENTLY INVALID,
because it is in conflict with the Paris Peace Treaty. It is both the
legal obligation and the moral duty of the United States to fulfill
her role as a guarantor of the Paris Peace Treaty. Even more
importantly, it is in the interest of the United States to make sure
that the Danube is returned to its riverbed, thereby restoring the
political and ecological stability of the region.

Madame Secretary, a single statement from you will resolve this issue.
Please make that statement.

Respectfully,

<Your name, address, title>


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter #2 for non-American citizens:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

The Honorable Madeleine Albright
United States Secretary of State
U.S. Department of State
2201 C Street, NW
Washington, DC  20520
(E-Mail:  )

RE: First Environmental Lawsuit (Danube) in The Hague

Dear Madame Secretary:

Please accept my congratulations on your well-deserved appointment,
which gives a special ray of hope to the people of Central Europe. We
hope for even greater American understanding and compassion for the
people of Central Europe, for their progress and stability.

Madame Secretary, you now have a great opportunity to set a new tone
for American policy in connection with the Danube lawsuit, which is
began March 3 in The Hague. This new tone would be consistent with the
US policy of expanding Western structures to Central and Eastern
Europe, and of engaging the US more actively in helping to resolve
emerging international conflicts in the region by (1) urging your
Western European partners to assist more proactively; and (2) calling
on both parties (Hungary and Slovakia) to accept the Compromise Plan
prepared by the environmental NGOs and thereby cooperate in the quest
for a solution that can set an example for the future.

Your help in resolving the Danube problem would also be consistent
with the present US policy based on a global approach to environmental
issues and on seeking to mobilize all relevant political
(multilateral, international, non-governmental and civic society)
forces to assist in avoiding environmental catastrophes caused by
bilateral agreements drawn up by non-representative governments under
the regional policy framework formerly imposed by Moscow.

Therefore please exert your influence on the outcome of the first
international environmental lawsuit in human history. You would not be
interfering in the operation of the International Court of Justice,
but rather fulfilling an American obligation. This is because it was
the Paris Peace Treaty which set the border between Czechoslovakia and
Hungary, and it was that Treaty which named the Great Powers as the
guarantors of the integrity of the two nations' territories. The
Treaty also stated that the two nations DO NOT have the right to make
changes without the prior approval of the Great Powers. Yet in 1977,
under Soviet direction, the two nations signed a contract to move the
Danube, previously their border river, into an artificial canal on
Slovak territory. For this they neither asked nor received the
necessary approval of the Great Powers.

Madame Secretary:  The International Court of Justice must be advised
that the Moscow-initiated 1977 Contract was and is INHERENTLY INVALID,
because it is in conflict with the Paris Peace Treaty. It is both the
legal obligation and the moral duty of the United States to fulfill
her role as a guarantor of the Paris Peace Treaty. Even more
importantly, it is in the interest of the United States to make sure
that the Danube is returned to its riverbed, thereby restoring the
political and ecological stability of the region.

Madame Secretary, a single statement from you will resolve this issue.
Please make that statement.

Respectfully,

<Your name, address, title>
+ - HL-Action: write AL GORE (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
   URGENT

Background:
  Please help to convince vice president Al Gore to make a statement
in favour for Szigetkoz. Feel free to use the attached new form
letter. Al Gore will only take notice if he receives thousands of
letters.
  Therefore please send at least one letter every day. Furthermore
PLEASE MAKE A CHAIN LETTER OF THIS CALL FOR ACTION. Send it to
everybody on your personal mailing list and ask them to forward it to
their friends. PLEASE ACT!!

What to do:
Please ask vice president Al Gore to make a statement in favour for
the environment of Szigetkoz. Feel free to use the attached NEW form
letter. Al Gore  will only take notice if he receives thousands of
letters.
      SEND SEVERAL LETTERS A DAY!!! PLEASE DO NOT ONLY SEND
      THEM BY E-MAIL!  Send them even by fax or "priority
      mail".  Below are the fax number, and the priority mail
      addresses you should use.
      In all cases, put the names of _both_ the Vice President
      _and one or another of his key aides_ on the top of the
      fax, or on the envelope address.

key aides:
Executive Assistant to the Vice President: Heather Marabeti
Deputy Chief of Staff:                        David Strauss
Director of Political Affairs:              Karen Elizabeth Skelton

address of key aides as well as of Al Gore:
Room 276, Old Executive Office Building
Washington, DC  20501
fax number: 202-456-7044

e-mail address of Al Gore:


*************************************************************

<date>

The Honorable Al Gore
Vice President of the United States
The White House
Washington, DC  20001
(E-Mail:  )

Dear Mr. Vice President:

On August 21, 1993, you wrote to Professor Bela Liptak about
your concern for the Danube ecosystem.  Today humankind is approaching
an important precedent:  On March 3, 1997, the International Court of
Justice started proceedings in the first international environmental
lawsuit in The Hague.

The ICJ will decide a case involving the Danube and the destruction of
its ancient wetland region, the Szigetkoz.  This name, loosely
translated, means "region of a thousand islands,"  yet today there is
not a single island left there, because the water is gone.

However, the implications of this case go beyond the future of just
one river or just the 400 endangered species of one ancient ecosystem.
This lawsuit will set a precedent for the whole planet and will answer
a much more basic question:  Do national governments have the right to
do as they please with our ecosystems, or does humankind as a whole
have a right to protect the rich natural treasures which belong to all
of us?

Mr. Vice President, in 1995 nine international environmental NGOs
submitted a memorial to ICJ, which its president, the Honorable
Mohammed Bedjaoui, has accepted.  A Compromise Plan was also submitted
to the Court; this Plan would guarantee the restoration of the ancient
Szigetkoz wetlands, together with fulfilling the water supply,
shipping and energy needs of the region.  For details of this Plan and
for other aspects of the lawsuit, please ask Bela Liptak or visit the
web site at:  http://www.goodpoint.com/duna.htm .

Dear Mr. Gore:  It is very important that the first international
environmental lawsuit be given the media attention it deserves. The
Foundation to Protect the Hungarian Environment can inform you of the
details.  A statement by you can guarantee that attention; please make
such a statement.

Respectfully,

<Your name, title and address>
+ - From Another Perspective (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Numerus clausus by any name is wrong, indeed morally reprehensible.
Wrong regardless of where and how it is practiced, in the 1920's Hungary
or the 1990's under the aegis of affirmative action.

In Hungary numerus clausus affected not only members of a religious
minority but also others. Indeed, in the aftermath of Trianon the
opportunity to study for certain professions was foreclosed to practically
all. One was chemical engineering, which at this juncture was open to a
total of two new students per year. The rest of the applicants were told
that due to the loss of the chemical industry in the First World War,
there was no need for chemical engineering students.

A curious coincidence is that one of the reasons given by those who
advocated the numerus clausus in Hungary was that they were "seeking
balance" in the student population. It reminds one of the arguments put
forth in our days to justify discrimination to further diversity.

It is easy to pass judgment on others based on the accepted norms of
today. It might be prudent for those tempted to ponder facets of our
history and reflect on

(1) Why are there diminishingly few women law partners today?

(2) Why are the medical establishment's senior positions filled almost
exclusively by white males?

(3) The picture of Gov. Wallace standing in the doorway and barring
a student from entering a university (this is the 1960's and not the
1920's).

(4) Armed airborne troops escorting students to classes (in the Great
Society of Lyndon Johnson).

(5) Why are eminently qualified WASPs barred when at the same time,
based on their ethnicity, applicants with SAT scores several hundred
points lower are welcomed with open arms?

Prof. Glazer in his recent book, "We are all Multiculturalists Now",
Harvard University Press, 1977, states the case for inclusion and the
"balance" that continues to offend those who are left on the outside.

CSABA K ZOLTANI
+ - The USA translation market and YOU (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

This message is of interest only to translators HUNGARIAN <> ENGLISH,
please hit the DELETE key if you are not one of them.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
How big is the USA translation market?
How many agencies operate in it?
What is the average size of an US translation agency?

How can I approach and work with US agencies, if I live in another country?
How can I increase my prices, if I already work in this market?

You can find answers to all the above questions at:

http://www.aaanetserv.com

You can also register for free in the largest database of free-lance translator
s
 on the Net.

Steven Lombardi
customer service manager
AAANetServ
Florida, USA
+ - Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

E.Balogh wrote:

>>This is still the practice on the Hungarian universities (or was untill
>>~1993). I myself had two of them because I took so many course that I
>>completly filled the first one. However, the student suppose to have
>>the index only during the exam period (~1.5 months). During the regular
>>term the index should be at the "Dean's office" (dekani hivatal) where
>>they are compared to the proffesors' reports in order to validate the
>>grades. So, even if someone loses the index, it is possible to retrieve
>>his/her academic record.
>
>        So did I have an index. And yes I know that it was supposed to be
>returned to the dean's office in recent years but obviously that wasn't the
>custom in 1919. And, by the way, if I may say so, it is a primitive and
>stupid practice.
>        ESB

Yes, most probably you are right. It is a primitive and very archaic way
to keep academic records.

J.Zs
+ - [Fwd: Re: numerus clausus in the U.S.] (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dies ist eine mehrteilige Nachricht im MIME-Format.

--------------7B6A40E95758
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

One more thing, Sam, was driving me. Since the Milgram experiments
we know how easily - normal, like you and me - human can be seduced to
become brutals. Not only Majdanek, Auschwitz,...are cruel demonstrations
of this fallability. Going irrational appears to be also part of our
biological program. Therefore, IMHO, awarness for what is initiating
intolerant group dynamics processes seems to be important, if we want
to try avoid them, to cope with them, to find solutions for them.
And I think, awareness prooved to be necessary and it was probably at
the the root of your reaction.
Regards
Miklos

--------------7B6A40E95758
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Message-ID: >
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 08:49:32 +0100
From: "Miklos K. Hoffmann" >
Reply-To: Am, Hang, 11, D24794, Borgstedt
Organization: Hoffmann&Hoffmann
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 DT [de]C (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Hungarian Discussion List >
Subject: Re: numerus clausus in the U.S.
References: >
 >
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Sam Stowe wrote:
>
> In article >, Denes BOGSANYI
> > writes:
>
> >If my understanding is correct you are highlighting the overwhelming =
> >hold by individuals and firms labelled as "Jewish" on Hungarian economic =
> >and cultural life.
> >The extreme right was strengthening and the government was trying to =
> >placate them by using means which had antecedents in other countries =
> >such as England and the USA even if these were not officially supported =
> >there.
> >
> >Regards
> >D=E9nes=20
> >
> >
>
> See what I mean? He's not going to stop until he's transferred blame for what
> post-war Hungarian governments chose to do to the country's Jewish population
.
> Sam Stowe
>
> "If you hear a Southerner say, 'Hey, y'all, watch this!',
> move away from him immediately. They're usually
> the last words he'll ever utter..."
> -- from "Southbound," a primer for our Northern friends
> contemplating a move to the promised land.

No Sam, you didn4t ( want to?, I don4t want to believe that )
understand.

There is NOTHING that could justify what happened. The quotation was
referring to a remark of Marina, ( POSSIBLY ) implying understanding
with discrimination at the Ivy League university, and here at Columbia
with a larger (  than in Hungary ) size of the Jewish population ). I
was trying to correct THIS statement ( if I got it right ), at least
percentwise.

a) IMHO and at the present state of the discussion the size of
the         population should not justify discrimination, not even in
the           republic ( which I love ) with justice and freedom for
all.
b) as far as proportions are concerned there appears to have been a
   problem which was then misused by the wright.

As to b) I think we would have to discuss the problem, how to handle
and organize equal CHANCES for different segments of society. How about
the economic prerequisites for an admittance to good universities?
How about Afroamericans? Hispanics? etc. I admire what is being done
by well-off people via foundations etc in this field. Still I think
there remains a problem.

Please forgive me, if I try to explain with American exemples. This is
not intended to say, < see, how nasty, YOU are >, but rather since it
appears to me that many list members are more familiar with the
situation over there. I assure you, we have enough problems here, too.
And even more in the former colonies of the USSR.
Take care!
Miklos




--------------7B6A40E95758--
+ - Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hey, Miklos!
Glad to see you are back from your recent travels.


In article >, "Miklos K. Hoffmann"
> writes:

>Sam Stowe wrote:
>>
>> In article >, Denes BOGSANYI
>> > writes:
>>
>> >If my understanding is correct you are highlighting the overwhelming =
>> >hold by individuals and firms labelled as "Jewish" on Hungarian economic =
>> >and cultural life.
>> >The extreme right was strengthening and the government was trying to =
>> >placate them by using means which had antecedents in other countries =
>> >such as England and the USA even if these were not officially supported =
>> >there.
>> >
>> >Regards
>> >D=E9nes=20
>> >
>> >
>>
>> See what I mean? He's not going to stop until he's transferred blame for
>what
>> post-war Hungarian governments chose to do to the country's Jewish
>population.
>> Sam Stowe


>No Sam, you didn4t ( want to?, I don4t want to believe that )
>understand.

The problem is that I understand only too well what he's up to. The correct
English colloquialism is "whitewashing."

>
>There is NOTHING that could justify what happened. The quotation was
>referring to a remark of Marina, ( POSSIBLY ) implying understanding
>with discrimination at the Ivy League university, and here at Columbia
>with a larger (  than in Hungary ) size of the Jewish population ). I
>was trying to correct THIS statement ( if I got it right ), at least
>percentwise.

I agree with you that nothing could justify what happened. Denes is the one
who's grasping at straws in that regard. My objection is specifically to his
comment in his last sentence that the Hungarians were only following the lead
of the British and the Americans. The truth is that the interwar Hungarian
governments came up with this stuff on their own and ultimately followed the
lead of the German Nazis in this regard to its cataclysmic conclusion.
(Soldier, in this army you alliterate or you fight. God, I

>
>a) IMHO and at the present state of the discussion the size of
>the         population should not justify discrimination, not even in
>the           republic ( which I love ) with justice and freedom for
>all.

The argument isn't over quantity. It's over the quality of the repression
involved.

>b) as far as proportions are concerned there appears to have been a
>   problem which was then misused by the wright.

What problem would that be, Miklos? Strange how it never occurred to the
interwar governments to expand access to higher education in Hungary rather
than simply kicking the Jews out to make more room for children drawn from a
small strata of Christian Hungarian society. It's part and parcel of the same
mentality which led pre-WWI Hungarian governments and inter-war governments
alike to restrict the nation's voting franchise. Plenty of lower-class
Christian Hungarian workers and rural peasants were just as s


>As to b) I think we would have to discuss the problem, how to handle
>and organize equal CHANCES for different segments of society. How about
>the economic prerequisites for an admittance to good universities?
>How about Afroamericans? Hispanics? etc. I admire what is being done
>by well-off people via foundations etc in this field. Still I think
>there remains a problem.

Perhaps it would be best at this point to split this discussion into two
threads: 1) a dialogue about numerus clausus in particular and 2) a discussion
of just what you outline above -- how to organize and handle equal opportunity
for different segments of society. Mingling the two merely serves to obscure
the morally catastrophic results which numerus clausus in particular and
anti-Semitism in general led to. I sense you are an admirer (or at least a
student) of Habermas as I am and we might have some fun

>
>Please forgive me, if I try to explain with American exemples. This is
>not intended to say, < see, how nasty, YOU are >, but rather since it
>appears to me that many list members are more familiar with the
>situation over there. I assure you, we have enough problems here, too.
>And even more in the former colonies of the USSR.

I think the latter thread I've suggested has important real-world ramifications
for current Hungarian society. From what I can gather, there are still large
groups of people in Hungary -- ciganyok and gays and lesbians come to mind
immediately -- who are marginalized. The question of providing them with
equality of opportunity would seem to be what William James would have termed a
live hypothesis.

>Take care!
>Miklos

You, too! I'm glad you're back with us.
Sam Stowe


"If you hear a Southerner say, 'Hey, y'all, watch this!',
move away from him immediately. They're usually
the last words he'll ever utter..."
-- from "Southbound," a primer for our Northern friends
contemplating a move to the promised land.
+ - Easter Services (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

THE HUNGARIAN REFORMED CHURCH
Affiliated with the Hungarian Reformed Church in America
and with the Salvin Synod ot the United Church of Christ
Invites you to an Easter celebration (in the Hungarian language)
on March 30, 1997 at 11:00 a.m.
at the Chapel of the Wesley Theological Seminary
4500 Massachusetts Ave, NW,
Washington, D.C.

Kindly call you friends and all interested parties to join us.

The Rev. Dr. Imre Bertalan, pastor
++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Szeretettel ertesitem gyuleketunk tagjait es baratait, valamint minden
erdeklodot, hogy urvacsoraval egybekotott istentiszteletet tartunk
1997, marcius 30-an, Husvet vasarnapjan delelott 11 orai kezdettel

a Wesley Theological Seminary kapolnajaban,
4500 Massachisetts Avenue, NW
Washington, D.C.

Az unnepre valo tekintettel vasarnpi iskolai foglalkozast nem tartunk.

Az istentisztelet szeretetvendegseg (kave, sutemeny) koveti,
amelyre mindekit varunk.  Aki sutemennyel kivan hozzajarulni most,
vagy az eljovendo vasarnapoko egiken, kerjul, jelentse Kiss Sandornenal,
a 703-768-3135 telefonszmon.

A biblia orainkhoz barki barmikor csatlakozhat.  Kerjuk, szandekat
kozolje a lelkipastorral.

Keszuljunk es hivjunk masokat is a husveti istentiszteletre es az
urvacsora sakramentumahoz.

Testveri szeretettel:
Dr. Bertalan Imre, lelikpastor
++++++++++++++++++++++
Church Telephone: 202-328-2630
Pastors Telephone: 301-493-5036
+ - Re: HUNGARY.0948..970321 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Thursday, 20 March 1997 23:10 Sam Stowe ] wrote;

> Feynman's worth reading because he was the rare scientific genius who could
> lucidly impart not only the highly technical details of his discoveries, but
> also the simple joy of exploration which
> fueled his curiosity. Nevertheless, you've taken this quote well out of its
> historical context in what appears to be an attempt to implicitly defend the
> indefensible.

Sorry. It was not an attempt to defend anything.  Neither explicitly
nor implicitly.

> I think Eva Balogh has already
> addressed this, but it won't hurt to point it out again -- any restriction of
> the numbers of Jews in Ivy League universities was an ad hoc and informal
> process rather than enshrined in state and
> federal law. The Hungarian situation during this time was far more serious --
> numerus clausus was the law of the land and it was systematically enforced by
> the government.
> Sam Stowe

IMHO I can clearly distinguish between a regulation of a university
and a law passed by Parliament in a country. I think that other people
can see the difference, too.

> P.S. -- Do you suppose Columbia, et. al., were just as scrupulous
> about not  admitting large numbers of students of Irish background,
> Roman Catholics,  Southerners, blacks and women during the same
> era? It sure wouldn't surprise me.

I have no idea. Maybe somebody will know.

 Magda Zimanyi
 KFKI Research Institute for Particle  Phone: +36-1-395-9242
 and Nuclear Physics                   FAX:   +36-1-395-9151
 Computer Networking Center            E-mail: 
 H-1525 Budapest 114, POB. 49, Hungary URL: http://www.kfki.hu/~mzimanyi
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------

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