> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: Re: Ban Nemzet @ siliconvalley.com, now!!!!! ( 2 sor )
>
> Czifra just don't ban anyone.  Okay.  Let them speak.  'Don't like it?
>  Pg.Down.  Don't ban them. Please.  Sandor

For Sa1ndor, and many others who have not seen this before, I'm reposting here
a classic (classic by net.standards, that is -- more than four years old!)
piece by A1kos Ro1na-Tas. It is interesting both because it gives a succint
analysis of the "PgDn option" and because some of the participants are the
same. This piece actually predates the establishment of HIX SZALON (in fact
SZALON's name originates with the metaphor used here). The net has no
historical memory, but the HIX archives are open, check them out.

Andra1s Kornai
|-----
|Felado : 
|Date: Tue Feb 18 00:49:02 EST 1992
|Subject: *** FORUM *** #492
|Temakor: Szalon Libanon
Kedves FORUMozok!

    Rossz dolgok altalaban suttyomban tortennek, a lenini fokozatossag
elvet kovetve. Minden nap csak egy picit csuszunk lefele, es csak akkor
vesszuk eszre, ha mar nyakig ulunk a hideg ragacsban. Csusztunkban lefele
olykor hirtelen nagyot huppanunk, de aztan feltapaszkodunk, es
megkonnyebbulten erezzuk: egyensulyunk visszatert, am nagy
megkonnyebbulesunkben nem tunik fel, hogy megint egy picit lejebb vagyunk.
A fokozatos lecsuszas kulonosen alattomos, ha nincs hosszutavu
emlekezetunk, es igy nincs mihez hasonlitani a jelent. A FORUM olvasoinak
egy resze nemregiben csatlakozott, igy nem tudhatja, hogy hol voltunk,
mielott ide jutottunk.

     Amikor a FORUM elodje a FALIUJSAG a Weisz Ivan meltan hires
hirszolgalata nyoman letrejott, mi azt hittuk, hogy egy uj, jo, erdekes
dolgot hozunk letre. A FALIUJSAG szalon volt, Weisz Ivan szalonja, ahol
kidumaltuk magunkat, indulatoskodtunk, ismeretterjeszto eloadasokat
tartottunk, osszebaratkoztunk es megutaltuk egymast. Azonban fontos, hogy
KIVANCSIAK voltunk egymas mondandojara. Ez a kivancsisag egyfajta
kozosseget, publikumot hozott letre, ahol voltak bizonyos iratlan
szabalyok, amelyek a szalon butorzatat adtak. Mik voltak ezek ? Peldaul,
hogy nem ervelunk a masik szemelyevel sajat allitasa ellen. (Lasd Forrai
vilagos magyarazatat a genetic fallacy-rol, es az azzal kapcsolatos vitat.)
Ugyanugy a butorzathoz tartozott, hogy tenyeket komolyan vesszuk. (Nem
lehet valakit 'adatsovinizmussal' megvadolni, without doing our own
homework.) Tovabba, ha kiderul, hogy valoszinuleg tevedtunk, azt
elismerjuk. (Ha Bardossyrol kiderul, hogy lelottek es nem felakasztottak,
akkor Elek Gabor modjara fejet hajtunk es nem banto megjegyzessel illetjuk
a vitapartnert.) Tovabba, gondosan elolvassuk, mit irt az ellenfel. Eloszor
megprobaljuk megerteni, es csak utana valaszolunk ra. Vegul, vitapartnert
lehetoseg szerint nem szegyenitjuk meg.
     A hosidokben is gyakran hagtuk at a fenti szabalyokat, de direkt modon
soha nem kerdojeleztuk meg oket. Es ha valaki kihagott, mindig akadt olyan,
akik raripakodott a bunosre. Ilyenkor a galad visszamorgott valamit, es
ezzel slussz!, a ugy veget ert, es a ko2z tapsolt az onkentes rendornek. A
tobbseg tudta, hogy nem csak poenokat kell szerezni, de a szalont is
rendben kell tartani. Kicsit ugy ereztuk vendegek vagyunk valamennyien,
Weisz Ivan vendegei.
     A szalon publikumanak meg kozos akciokra is futotta. Megszerveztuk
sajat szavazasunkat 1990 marciusaban es tobb kozos peticiot is
benyujtottunk. Ekkor szuletett meg a HIRMONDO, hala Babai Lacinak, Toth
Gabornak, Masszi Ferinek es Drozdy Gyozonek, es ekkor kezdtuk el szervezni
a Radios Hireket Hanak Gaborral es Csanady Danival.
     Weisz Ivan lekoszontekor Hollosi Jozsi es Torocsik Jeno vette at a
stafetabotot. Ekkor lett a FALIUJSAGbol FORUM. Jozsi, akar csak Ivan,
iszonyatos munkat olt a HIXbe, hogy mehessen tovabb a kvaterkazast. A
szalon folytatodott. Minden reggel izgatottan kapcsoltam be a PC-met, hogy
mit ir most Hanak, Deak, Hollosi, Breznay, Hetyei, Borocz, Kornai, Hidas,
Toth B es Toth G, Fodor, Leirer, Vorsatz, Ligeti, Drozdy, Greschik, Kota,
Vizvari, Roboz es a tobbiek. Hol tetszett, amit irtak, hol a fejemet
fogtam, hogy ilyen hulyeseget, hogy lehet leirni, es sokszor en is
beszalltam a ringbe magam rogeszmeivel. Sok ismerost es ismeretlent vettem
ra, hogy olvassa a FORUMot, es tudom, hogy van egy tobbseg, aki nem ir,
csak olvas, de fontos neki a FORUM.

     1991-ben a FORUM megindult lefele a lejton, es ezt nem lehet
egyszeruen Egyed Zoltan, Csorna Istvan, Pellionisz Andras, Pannon Jozsef es
Szekely Zoltan nyakaba varrni. Mar az Obol-haboru es a horvat
fegyverszallitasok kapcsan kibontakozo vita is tullepte a szalonkepesseg
hatarait, ezt azonban meg lehetett rendezni. Az igazi bajok akkor
kezdodtek, amikor Cs.I. MacCartney Elemer nyoman kezdte bizonygatni, hogy
Horthy nem volt felelos a magyar zsidok tragidiajaert. Meghokkenve
tapasztaltuk, hogy Cs. me1ly meggyozodessel kepvisel egy olyan allaspontot,
amely kivul esett azokon a nezeteken, amelyekkel vitatkozni szoktunk.
     Cs.-val kezdetben nem is lehetett vitatkozni, az ellenvetesekre nem
valaszolt, es meg a nevet is csak honapokkal kesobb tudtuk meg. Vegre
elkezdett felelgetni az ot ert tamadasokra, es akkor kiderult, hogy
reszerol itt kereszteshadjarat folyik, egy olyan politikai es emberi
magatartas jegyeben, amely a szalon tobbsegenek idegen. Cs. a szalont
csupan hadmuveleti terepnek tekintette, es egy olyan allaspontot es
magatartast kepviselt, amellyel a szalon nem tudta mit kezdjen.
     Tobben felvetettek, hogy zarjuk ki Cs.-t, ezt azonban, helyesen,
elvetettuk. Am a kovetkezo csapdaba estunk: egyfelol ereztuk, hogy Cs. es
tarsai tonkreteszik a szalont, masfelol ragaszkodtunk liberalis elveinkhez,
amely minden cenzurat kizar. Naivitasunkban arrol feledkeztunk meg, hogy
minden kozosseg, meg a legliberalisabb is, normakon nyugszik, es ezeket a
normakat pedig apolni kell. A szalonrol es annak sopreserol feledkeztunk
meg.
     Gyozott a PgDn opcio, legalabbis latszolag. Mert valojaban az tortent,
hogy mindenki Cs.-t olvasta, mindenki Cs.-val vitatkozott. Igy lepesrol
lepesre Cs. vette at a FORUM iranyitasat. Hogy ez miert tortent ? Szerintem
ket okbol: eloszor is a szelsosegesek mindig tobb figyelmet provokalnak
maguknak, masodszor, a szelsoseggel szemben olyanok is fel tudnak sorakozni
egymas mellett, akik egyebkent sok kerdesben nem ertenek egyet. Sorakozni
pedig jolesik. Mikozben Cs. hozzaszolasai se nem kulonosebben magvasak, se
nem tartalmaztak sok uj informaciot, iszonyatos mennyisegu byte-ot
pazaroltunk rajuk. Mikozben a szalon butorzata fokozatosan tort miszlikbe,
az ujonnan talalt frontvonalak mogott bajtarsilag parolaztunk egymassal
egy-egy jobban sikerul tuzersegi tamadas utan.
     Mara eljutottunk oda, hogy mar senki sem kivancsi a masikra, csak az
az erdekes, hogy az ellenfelbe hol lehet belekotni. Ahogy az mar lenni
szokott, ha egy harc egy percnel tovabb tart, mindket fel kovet el
disznosagot, amelyet a masik joggal panaszolhat fel. Peldaul sokszor
kivantam, barcsak Korner Janos (akit en szemelyesen ismerek, es akinek
FORUMon kivuli szemelyet nagyra becsulom) ne szolalna meg. (Elek Gabor egy
masik kategoria: az o hozzaszolasai iroi munkassaganak kepezi reszet :-).
En nyelvezetet, jatekossagat es humorat nagyra ertekelem, de belatom, hogy
ezt egyesek ezt elfogultsagom szamlajara irjak majd. Hat legyen.... Elekert
adok egy Pellioniszt, itt a kezem nem disznolab!)
     Megkezdodott a sanchaboru, es senki sem kepes arra, hogy kozvetitsen a
felek kozott. Hollosi Jozsi nem erezte magat hivatottnak erre, Hetyei Gabor
egy darabig igyekezett mersekelni a vitat, de amikor CSEPPek szemelyes
integritasaban tamadtak meg, szepen o is kiszallt. A frontvonal egyre
melyult. Sz.Z, E.Z., P.A., P.J. csatlakoztak Cs.-hoz. A sanc ket oldalan
alloknak mar akkor sem lehetett egyezsegre jutniuk, ha tortenetesen
valamiben egyetertettek. (Sz.Z. peldaul az elejen meg erezte, hogy tenni
kene valamit a vita civilizalt mederben tartasaert, aztan o is beallt a
sanc moge.)
     A FORUM hangneme egyre agresszivabba, rosszindulatubba, tartalma egyre
sekelyesebbe valt. A szalonnal mar senki sem torodott, romma lottuk a nagy
csataban. Odaig sullyedtunk, hogy ma nincs az a disznosag, az az alavalo
szemetseg, amit ne lehetne a FORUMon 'buntetlenul' megtenni. Emberek
becsuletebe lehet gazolni, multjukrol, sot szuleikrol lehet oket
beszamoltatni, nevtelen ragalmazasokat lehet vilagga kurtolni, ugy, hogy a
sertett nem erezhet maga mogott egy vedo konszenzust. A legalparibb
szennyet is, ha massal nem, multbeli egyeb -- valos es velt -- serelmek
elorancigalasaval lehet igazolni.
     Korosi Gabor, Radnai Tamas, Findler Miklos Bodor Geza, Vizy Bela es
meg nehany szerzo erofesziteseinek ellenere lassan szivarognak el az irok
es az olvasok. Ki mas bulletin boardokra ter at, ki teljesen abbahagyja az
elektronikus hochmecolast. Nemsokara a FORUMban kizarolag CSEPPe1ket lehet
majd olvasniuk CSEPPe1knek.
     A sanc egyik oldala megfutamodott. Rendben, de hiaba megyunk barhova,
a tanulsagokat le kell vonni. Kulonben elobb vagy utobb ugyanide lyukadunk
ki. Szalon Libanonba.

             Rona-Tas Akos

Jancsi Czifra:

>Action should not only be taken by those on the HL-list, but by those of you
>reading this as well. Many on these lists are offended by what Szucs & Co. has
>to say, but now is the time to act. I call on Sam Stowe, Jim Doepp, Joe Szalai
,
>Eva Durant, Eva Balogh, Martha Bihari, Celia Fabos-Becker, Aniko Dunford, Gabo
r
>Elek, and others who had plenty to say about our friends from silicon way to
>back me up on this one, for once.

        Why shouldn't I back you up? Of course, I will. I already wrote to
Bela Liptak and told him what I thought. Whether he will listen to me only
time will tell. But, I am afraid, you are right: the Hungarian Lobby is
becoming a haven of the right; no question about it. I tried to explain to
Bela Liptak that a lobby is no lobby if there is no common "desired goal."
And people from the extreme right have a very different goal from us,
conservatives and liberals, but democrats.

        Eva Balogh

Eva Balogh wrote:
>
>Dan Rako:
>
>>Would that France had provided Rakoczi II with the support they had
>>promised...
>
>        Would you be a little more specific?
>
>        Eva Balogh
>
Nope.  I've been around long enough to avoid a long, drawn-out debate.
I'll just say...

                PRO LIBERTATE!

Celia read in her local paper what I also read in a Hungarian paper this
morning:

>Taszar, Hungary (AP)  Some Hungarians employed in the kitchen serving U.S.
>troops backing up the peace force in Bosnia claim Americans are sexually
>harrassing and exploiting them.

        However, before I sat down and wrote a lengthy letter concerning
this piece of news, I would first try to find out what happened in reality.
There have been a lot of news about Taszar, among other things that the
kitchen staff had been fired because they had stole from the kitchen. In any
case, I would do absolutely nothing until I was absolutely certain that I
knew what I was talking about. Jumping in and complaining bitterly will not
do any good if it turns out that the people complaining are not telling the
truth, which is always a possibility.

        Eva Balogh

Cecilia, back in full force:

> Uh, sorry, folks, but according to a couple of attorneys I know, one of
>whom is a very experienced and well-known human and civil rights attorney,
>besides tax and criminal attorney, technically the Australian gentleman
>could indeed do just what he wants to do, and the case might not be thrown
>out.

        Well, then, just please get in touch with the Hungarian extreme
right which was so enamored with the idea and suggest to them to take up the
case again, so sadly abandoned.

        Eva Balogh

Amen!

All I want to add to what J. Czifra wrote is that the presence of  Nazis and
Nazi sympathizers among those who participate in the various actions
supporting Hungarians in difficult situations makes it much easier for those
who wish to discredit all these actions as those of "extremists".

Gabor D. Farkas

I think Ms. Fa'bos-Becker did miss this line from Eva Balogh's reply,
although she did reproduce it:

>>the, and now listen carefully, Supreme Court of the United States!!! I think

The point was (I think) that one does not start a suit in the Supreme Court
of the United States. It may get there after lower courts disposed of it.

Gabor D. Farkas

Hi!

This message is addressed primarily to business-people, or to those who =

have some business experience, but You are welcome to reply even if You =

are not one.  If You know anybody who You think could answer the =

questions below, please forward this message to that person. =


I=92m an International Business student at Oregon State University, OR, =

USA.  I=92m conducting a research for my Organizational Behavior class, in =

which I should describe how culture of a country influences the ways =

business is conducted in that country; and come up with the practical =

advice for American businessmen who are going to work there.  I=92ve =

chosen Hungary because it=92s a former socialist country which started =

economic reforms as early as 1968 (and I=92m from Kazakhstan which became =

independent 5 years ago and is now experiencing changes that Hungary =

might have passed long ago), and it would be interesting to learn how =

similar or different it is comparing to other European countries or US. =

 There are few books about business in Hungary, and many of them are =

old, so I decided to get information directly from You, and I hope You =

will help : )

The  questionnaire is quite big, sorry.  Please answer as many questions =

as You can (want).  If You don=92t want to write your opinion, simple =

Yes/No will be welcome too.  Please send the reply even if You answered =

only several questions.


What is your name?

Age?

Gender?

Where do You live?

What is Your occupation?

Do You have any business experience?  What kind of?

In Your opinion, =


1. What is the attitude Hungarians take toward the environment?
        a) people are subjugated to it (cannot change or control it)
        b) in harmony with it
        c) dominate it

2. Does Hungarian culture focus on the:
        a) past (value traditions)
        b) present (short-term goals)
        c) future (long-term goals) ?

3. Which of the following best describes Hungarian's beliefs toward =

human nature?
        a) generally evil (watch out)
        b) generally good (trust)
        c) mix of the two ?

4. Which of the following best describes Hungarian's activity =

orientation?
        a) action (doing, accomplishments)
        b) being (living the moment, immediate gratification of desires)
        c) controlling (restraining desires) ?

 5. Which of the following best describes the focus of responsibility in =

Hungary?
        a) emphasis on individualism
        b) group harmony, unity and loyalty
        c) hierarchy (aristocratic)
 =

6. In Hungary, what is the relationship to space in business conduct?
        a) public (no walls separating you from colleagues)
b) private (value security and confidentiality of your own office)
        c) mix (limited privacy)

 7. Which of the following best describes the distribution of power in =

Hungarian business?
        a) high--wide differences in power;   title, rank and status are =

important
        b) low--inequalities are minimized, superiors have authority, =

but employees =

are not in awe of the boss

8. Which of the following best describes the attitudes of Hungarian =

people in general and businessmen in particular when dealing with =

uncertainty?  In other words, is the uncertainty avoidance best =

described as:
        a) low--comfortable with risks;  tolerant of different behavior =

and opinions
        b) high--more stress, more formal rules, less tolerant for =

different ideas and
behavior ?

 9. Which of the following factors is considered most important?
        a) assertiveness, acquisition of money and material things, =

little caring for others
        b) relationships, concern for others, and the overall quality of =

life; preserving the  environment ?

10.  What is the common form of business communication in Hungary?
        a) formal (business meetings, appointments, etc.) =

        b) informal (business lunches, recreational activities with =

colleagues, etc.)
        c) both (which prevails?)

11.  How is an average business meeting conducted? Is it
a) mixed with socializing?  =

b) a matter of going through the agenda and getting back to work?

12. What is typical meeting behavior like? (i.e. a)formal, b)informal, =

c)varies greatly)

13. Do You like dealing with America/Americans?

14. How do You view American business people in general?

15. What do You think of your American counterparts, if You have any?

16. What amazes You most when it comes to how American managers handle =

their employee relations, both in and out of the office?

17. What do You dislike most about American way of doing business and =

business-people? (my personal feelings=97some are like predators, no =

sincerity in smiles, friendship ends as soon as business ends) =


18. Within Hungary, are American managers viewed as a help or a threat =

to the sovereignty of a company's inner customs and business practices? =

 If even a threat, do the American managers benefit the company in other =

ways, or should native managers retain control during the process of =

privatization?

19. What one thing could Hungarian businessmen teach American =

businessmen to help their businesses run smoother?

20. What is Your opinion on the privatization of government businesses?

21. Is there a difference between the culture in privatized companies =

versus government owned companies?

22. What roles have changed, if any, with the business sector (i.e. =

gender, age, etc.)?

23. In a country that is changing so much, what would You like to see =

remain unchanged, as far as the business, social, and political world =

go?

24. Are there any Soviet/socialist remnants in the way business is =

conducted?  If yes, what?

25. How have You or business in general adapted to the changes in the =

political and business climate in Hungary over the recent years?

26. How is the Hungarian corporate system structured?  Is it =

hierarchical like the U.S.?

27. How bureaucratic are Hungarian organizations?

28. How important are titles in Hungarian business?  How do Hungarian =

people address each other both at work and outside of work (e.g. in the =

U.S. addressing by first name is common)?

29.  What qualities of the job do You value most (please rank from 1 to =

6, 1=97highest)
        a) good supervisor
        b) interesting job
        c) high salary
        d) career opportunities
        e) good co-workers
        f) your suggestions

30. How much is promptness valued?

31. What are the traditional ways of outside socializing for =

business-people?

32. In what business situation if any might a gift be appropriate?  What =

type of gift may be given?

33. Are dress-codes common in business and if so what type of dress is =

most common?

34.  Please give examples of Hungarian customs/traditions that would be =

interesting and useful to know for foreigners (particularly Americans).

35. Please list things Hungarians are most proud of or famous for =

(personally, I like Tokaj very much : ).

36.  What Hungarian people like to talk about, generally ?
a)  famous people
b)  politics
c)  weather
d)  wines, food
e)  fashion
f)  music
g)  literature
h)  philosophy
i)  your suggestions =


37.  What do Hungarians most care about?

38. What qualities should a person have if he/she wants to conduct =

successful business in Hungary?  What a foreigner should do to guarantee =

success of his/her business in Hungary? =


39. How important is the government's role in business environment in =

Hungary?

40. In what ways do You think the Hungarian government has benefited =

and/or hurt the business environment in Hungary?

41. What government policies do You dislike the most?  Like the best?

42. Are You familiar with any (recent) legislative acts that =

affect business, particularly:
-laws concerning monopolies;
-antitrust legislation;
-laws about the rights of private intellectual property;
-patent laws;
-tax regulations;
-international trade and currency exchange regulations;
-employment regulations (union, social security regulations)?

43. How strict are government agencies in enforcing the regulations?

44. What are major barriers in conducting business in Hungary?

45. Is corruption a problem?  What kind of "facilitating payments" are =

appropriate?

46. Are there any organized crime problems affecting business?  If yes, =

how serious?

47. What are the busiest times of the year in Hungary?  How do holidays =

affect business?

48. Would You like to add anything ? =


 =

Again, I will be glad to receive any answers, but please make sure you =

put the number of the question with the answer. =


Thank You  very much for your patience and cooperation!

>
> >Marx denied the existance of an Absolute Truth.
> >
> >Eva Durant
> >
> >
> In metaphysical terms, yes. In historical terms, no. Nice try.
> Sam Stowe


Wrong. He did not declare socialism the "end of history".
He said at a point of human development people will conciously
change not only their natural, but also their social environment.
That is the philosophical content. His contemporary politics/
strategies/predictions are a separate topic.

Eva Durant

Safest is the investment in a secure, totelitarian state,
with slave labour.  The success for new investment is not
the best measure of progress and the general well-being
of a society. Cheap labour and gov.t tax-handouts to investors
only work for a limited period. Than, when the grants/subsidies/
handouts have disappeared to the directors and sharholders,
the investment goes to Malaysia etc, where the conditions are
more favourable for the time being... but even more goes to
speculation anyway, without any relation to any free market
theories.

Eva Durant


>
> Modern economies depend on the opinion of other countries and their financial
> institutions.  My home loan interest payments go down if Japan thinks the UK
> is a safe investment, so we in the UK will employ fiscal strategies that we
> hope the Japanese will approve of.  Does that mean we are 'governed' by the
> Japanese?  It just means that there are a lot of shops in the street, and we
> make efforts to make our shopfront one of the most attractive.
>
> ....or you can fight with the WB and IMF for a few years and frighten off any
> new investment in your country.  We did that for years and years in the
> Seventies.  Not to be recommended, but you might know better!
>
>
> 
> Shopfront Polisher,
> Budapest Lover

At 08:13 PM 5/6/96 -0400, John Czifra wrote:

>Action should not only be taken by those on the HL-list, but by those of you
>reading this as well. Many on these lists are offended by what Szucs & Co. has
>to say, but now is the time to act. I call on Sam Stowe, Jim Doepp, Joe Szalai
,
>Eva Durant, Eva Balogh, Martha Bihari, Celia Fabos-Becker, Aniko Dunford, Gabo
r
>Elek, and others who had plenty to say about our friends from silicon way to
>back me up on this one, for once.

It's naive of the Hungarian Lobby and John Czifra to think that you can do
political action without being political.  John is forever reminding the
readers of this list that he is not political.  Sorry, John, but that's a
political thing to say.  I'm also sorry that you don't seem to understand
that.

I don't know much about the Hungarian Lobby but if it's an open organization
it's doomed to fail.  The extremist right always gravitates to pro-national
organizations.  That shouldn't surprise anyone.  If Bela Liptak wouldn't
have set it up, the extreme right would have created a similar organization.
If the HL is to continue it must stop the subscribe/unsubscribe yourself
policy.
Joe Szalai

Dear John -- a request: in the future, please try to keep this type of
correspondence to the HUNGARY listy only.  The HL -- Hungarian Lobby
list should be for action items only.

Thanks

Charlie Vamossy

Dear Cecilia:

Your posting was very interesting.  I do have a request, however.

Please keep this type of correspondence on the HUNGARY list only.  The
Hungarian Lobby should be reserved for action items only.

Thanks

Charlie Vamossy

At 11:23 AM 5/6/96 -0700, Dan Rako wrote:
>Eva Balogh wrote:
>>
>>Dan Rako:
>>
>>>Would that France had provided Rakoczi II with the support they had
>>>promised...
>>
>>        Would you be a little more specific?
>>
>>        Eva Balogh
>>
>Nope.  I've been around long enough to avoid a long, drawn-out debate.
>I'll just say...
>
>                PRO LIBERTATE!
>
        That's interesting. A discussion group where someone drops a line a
refuses to elaborate or to discuss. However, I gather that you think that if
Hungary had won in 1711 everything would have been peachy pie. I very much
doubt it.

        Eva Balogh

At 05:46 PM 5/6/96 -0700, Gabor Farkas wrote:
>Amen!
>
>All I want to add to what J. Czifra wrote is that the presence of  Nazis and
>Nazi sympathizers among those who participate in the various actions
>supporting Hungarians in difficult situations makes it much easier for those
>who wish to discredit all these actions as those of "extremists".
>
        How true. And this is exactly what Bela Liptak must understand. The
people who are gathering around his lobby will eventually discredit the
whole effort and Hungarians will look very, very bad.

        I wish that Bela would actually read these lists--I don't think that
he had the foggiest idea what these people are all about.

        Eva Balogh

Joe Szalai and I are on the same side:

>I don't know much about the Hungarian Lobby but if it's an open organization
>it's doomed to fail.  The extremist right always gravitates to pro-national
>organizations.  That shouldn't surprise anyone.

        Moreover, I have another objection. You cannot have an entirely
free-wheeling lobby. As I said earlier, any self-respecting lobby has a
definite aim--you can't have, let's say, a tobacco lobby where half the
people are supporters and half the people are the opponents of smoking.
Also, you cannot just allow any people to speak in the name of a group, in
this case, the Hungarian Lobby, which is allegedly without an organized
structure and without an officer corps of some sort. The activities of a
lobby must be concentrated, the lobby must speak with one voice. Otherwise,
it is not a lobby.

        Eva Balogh

Dear Andras,

        Thank you very, very much for reposting this piece. I am just sorry
that some of our friends on this list don't know Hungarian to read it. What
a beautiful piece.

        Eva Balogh

Dear Andras:

Thank you for taking the time to share Akos' post.  It was wonderful
reading!  Makes me a tad envious, that I missed out on those early years of
the group.  Aside from which, great food for thought.

Aniko Dunford

Can anyone send me (email) the list of train going from BUDAPEST to
KOLOSZVAR (Cluj) with their time table/schedual of departures and
arrivals.

Any assistance will be appreciated.
Thanks
Mark

>>Eva Balogh wrote:
>>>
>>>Dan Rako:
>>>
>>>>Would that France had provided Rakoczi II with the support they had
>>>>promised...
>>>
>>>        Would you be a little more specific?
>>>
>>>        Eva Balogh
>>>
>>Nope.  I've been around long enough to avoid a long, drawn-out debate.
>>I'll just say...
>>
>>                PRO LIBERTATE!
>>
>        That's interesting. A discussion group where someone drops a line a
>refuses to elaborate or to discuss. However, I gather that you think that if
>Hungary had won in 1711 everything would have been peachy pie. I very much
>doubt it.
>
>        Eva Balogh

Maybe he just does not want to take the History-213. I am not the only one
who hates reading background material. :-)

Janos

Janos Zsargo:

>Maybe he just does not want to take the History-213. I am not the only one
>who hates reading background material. :-)

        I would start with History-100 if I were you.

        Eva Balogh

Eva Balogh wrote:
> You cannot have an entirely
>free-wheeling lobby. As I said earlier, any self-respecting lobby has
a
>definite aim--you can't have, let's say, a tobacco lobby where half
the
>people are supporters and half the people are the opponents of
smoking.
>Also, you cannot just allow any people to speak in the name of a
group, in
>this case, the Hungarian Lobby, which is allegedly without an
organized
>structure and without an officer corps of some sort. The activities of
a
>lobby must be concentrated, the lobby must speak with one voice.
Otherwise,
>it is not a lobby.
>
>        Eva Balogh
>

I understand Eva's comments and would even wish with her that a well
funded, organized, well-staffed entity was around and lobby on behalf
and for the benefit of Hungary and Hungarians.

At this time, neither the funds or the staff are available for such an
undertaking. While there are a small number of lean but effective
organizations, like HHRF and HAC, who do an excellent job of making
their views known, there are really no organizations around for a
largescale, grass-roots effort.

So we do the next best thing.  Using the miracles of modern
communications, like e-mail and fax, we distribute our opinions and our
facts to each other, hoping that each of us will "do the right thing"
by passing them on to politicians and the press.

Somewhat to our own surprise, it is actually working!  And it's working
without the overhead, the politics, the infighting associated with
large organizations.

Of course, it is a great deal more lax, less precise and sometimes even
a  troublesome process.  And once in a while people whose ideas are
alien to us find their way into the stream.  I wish they would stop and
go away...  but I know they won't.  So I do what everyone else on HL
does...  I read the messages and suggested letters carefully, select
the ones with opinions similar to my own, possibly change them (I
certainly don't agree with all of them unconditionally) and send them
on to my elected officials and to the press.

The Hungarian Lobby is not the end but the means.  Maybe Lobby is the
wrong word:  it should be the Hungarian Network.

So, dear Eva..  I understand your frustration for I know it stems from
good will.  But rather than focusing on the shortcomings, let us help
Bela Liptak and the others concentrate on their valuable work and let's
dismiss the noise coming from the fringes as just that:  noise.  If the
"silent majority" of Hungarians finds its voice, they'll just get
drowned out.

with best regards,


Charlie Vamossy

You wrote:
>
>>>Eva Balogh wrote:
>>>>
>>>>Dan Rako:
>>>>
>>>>>Would that France had provided Rakoczi II with the support they
had
>>>>>promised...
>>>>
>>>>        Would you be a little more specific?
>>>>
>>>>        Eva Balogh
>>>>
>>>Nope.  I've been around long enough to avoid a long, drawn-out
debate.
>>>I'll just say...
>>>
>>>                PRO LIBERTATE!
>>>
>>        That's interesting. A discussion group where someone drops a
line a
>>refuses to elaborate or to discuss. However, I gather that you think
that if
>>Hungary had won in 1711 everything would have been peachy pie. I very
much
>>doubt it.
>>
>>        Eva Balogh
>
>Maybe he just does not want to take the History-213. I am not the only
one
>who hates reading background material. :-)
>
>Janos
>
I, for one, would have enjoyed Eva's and possibly others' discussion
and may have learned something from it.  I agree with Eva.  If Dan Rako
did not want to start a discussion, why did he start one? I find that
annoying.


best regards



Charlie Vamossy

To E.Balogh:

>Janos Zsargo:
>
>>Maybe he just does not want to take the History-213. I am not the only one
>>who hates reading background material. :-)
>
>        I would start with History-100 if I were you.
>
>        Eva Balogh

No thanks, I don't want to know what was the wrongdoings of my Hungarian
ancestors in the Neolitikum.

Janos

At 04:06 PM 5/6/96 -0600, Charles Csipkay wrote:
>Two questions (to Eva):
>
>1. When Teleki Pal, unwilling to commit Hungary to the German attack on
>Yugoslavia, died of gunshot wounds, it was officially reported as suicide.
>I knew Teleki as the national Hungarian boy scout leader, and knew, that he
>was a devout Catholic, who, in our opinion, would not have committed
>suicide.  What does history say about this?. My understanding was that he
>was shot by the Germans.

        It is indeed somewhat surprising that a man who was such a devout
Catholic would commit suicide. However, nothing came up since then which
would support anything else.


>2. What happened to Ortutay.? I used to greatly admire his works on
>Hungarian Folk art (Magyar motivumok gyujtemenye, Erdelyi Helikon kiadasa
>valamikor a harmincas evekben), which I don't have,  and his collection of
>Ballads (szekely nepballadak) with Gyorgy Buday's beautiful woodcuts, which
>I do have. In 1992 we went to Kecskemet to visit his ethnic museum, but
>were told that he was then 'persona non grata' , and his part of the
>collection was closed.  I was upset, telling the curator that I am not
>interested in Ortutay's politics, only his work in the field of Hungarian
>ethnic culture, but she just shrugged her shoulders. What did he do?

        I don't think that I know enough about him, except that got a little
too involved with the MDP and later the MSZMP. I do know that the people in
the Folklore Department of the University of Budapest hated him. (I knew a
couple of people there.) One of the biographical dictionaries I have here
(outdated--1960s) describes him politically, right after the war, as
"belonging to the left wing of the Smallholders' Party," which to me means
that most likely he was a Communist mole there. Perhaps Andras Kornai or
Gabor Fencsik could be more specific.

        Eva Balogh

P.S. This past February I was in Hungary and I was visiting with a cousin of
mine. Looking through her bookselves, I saw some work of Ortutay and I
remember blurting out: the rat!

At 03:19 PM 5/7/96 -0400, Janos Zsargo wrote:
>To E.Balogh:
>
>>Janos Zsargo:
>>
>>>Maybe he just does not want to take the History-213. I am not the only one
>>>who hates reading background material. :-)
>>
>>        I would start with History-100 if I were you.
>>
>>        Eva Balogh
>
>No thanks, I don't want to know what was the wrongdoings of my Hungarian
>ancestors in the Neolitikum.

        The lack of objectivity in viewing national histories is
unfortunately the source of all sorts of evil. Without a critical overview
of a nation's history we can't possibly even understand the present. Not
really understanding the history of, let's say, the thirteenth century, we
can come up with misleading and, let me add, extremely stupid statements.
For example, the one by a certain journalist working for *Magyar Forum* (the
official paper of Istvan Csurka's MIEP party) who compared the Golden Bull's
anti-foreign provisions to the necessity of anti-foreign legislatures of
today. The Golden Bull was a series of demands from the richest and most
powerful landowners of the land against a weak king. Needless to say to
their own selfish end. And how can anyone compare the Golden Bull,
expressing narrow class interests to a modern, global economy, especially
when Hungary needs foreign capital so badly? And yet, propagandists use
history shamelessly.

        I find Janos's total willigness to look at a different
interpretation of Hungarian history disheartening. Especially since this is
not some kind of horrid foreign attack on the Hungarian nation. Most
historians in Hungary think the same way.

        Eva Balogh

At 11:56 AM 5/7/96 -0700, Charles M. Vamossy wrote:

>But rather than focusing on the shortcomings, let us help
>Bela Liptak and the others concentrate on their valuable work and let's
>dismiss the noise coming from the fringes as just that:  noise.  If the
>"silent majority" of Hungarians finds its voice, they'll just get
>drowned out.

You're too optimistic, Charles.  The noise on the fringe maybe 'just' noise
today, but tomorrow...?  Who knows?  The point is that the work of many can
be destroyed by one bad move by someone with extreme views.  People always
remember the negative.  It's much more newsworthy than the silent work of
thousands of well meaning people.

Joe Szalai

You wrote:
>
>At 11:56 AM 5/7/96 -0700, Charles M. Vamossy wrote:
>
>>But rather than focusing on the shortcomings, let us help
>>Bela Liptak and the others concentrate on their valuable work and
let's
>>dismiss the noise coming from the fringes as just that:  noise.  If
the
>>"silent majority" of Hungarians finds its voice, they'll just get
>>drowned out.
>
>You're too optimistic, Charles.  The noise on the fringe maybe 'just'
noise
>today, but tomorrow...?  Who knows?  The point is that the work of
many can
>be destroyed by one bad move by someone with extreme views.  People
always
>remember the negative.  It's much more newsworthy than the silent work
of
>thousands of well meaning people.
>
>Joe Szalai
>
Maybe, Joe...   but I remain optimistic.

Charles Vamossy

On Tue, 7 May 1996, Joe Szalai wrote:

> At 11:56 AM 5/7/96 -0700, Charles M. Vamossy wrote:
>
> >But rather than focusing on the shortcomings, let us help
> >Bela Liptak and the others concentrate on their valuable work and let's
> >dismiss the noise coming from the fringes as just that:  noise.  If the
> >"silent majority" of Hungarians finds its voice, they'll just get
> >drowned out.
>
> You're too optimistic, Charles.  The noise on the fringe maybe 'just' noise
> today, but tomorrow...?  Who knows?  The point is that the work of many can
> be destroyed by one bad move by someone with extreme views.  People always
> remember the negative.  It's much more newsworthy than the silent work of
> thousands of well meaning people.
>
> Joe Szalai
>
Joe, I haven't disagreed with you in while (Shucks :-) ) but is it so
true that people only remember the bad? I have to think about the people
that the HL group tries to inform, that they would not be exposed to some
fo the negative aspects. If they are, then I suppose the work is blown.
do you really see this as the case here?

Darren Purcell
Department of Geography
Florida State University

At 05:51 PM 5/7/96 -0700, Charles Vamossy wrote:

>Maybe, Joe...   but I remain optimistic.

Nothing wrong with being optimistic.  However, whether or not a Lobby can be
damaged by extremists has nothing to do with optimism or pessimism.  A few
guidelines might ensure that you remain optimistic.

Joe Szalai

At 09:00 PM 5/7/96 -0400, Darren Purcell, wrote:

>Joe, I haven't disagreed with you in while (Shucks :-) ) but is it so
>true that people only remember the bad? I have to think about the people
>that the HL group tries to inform, that they would not be exposed to some
>fo the negative aspects. If they are, then I suppose the work is blown.
>do you really see this as the case here?

I think people remember all kinds of things, but negative publicity in the
Lobby and PR business can be deadly.  Other lobbys, and those who oppose
Hungarian interests, whatever that might be, would point to the bad apples
in the HL and try to draw negative world reaction to it.  I mean, that's
what the game is all about, no?

If there are no clear, well defined goals and guidelines within the
organization then it will be difficult to distance the Hungarian Lobby from
possible extremist views.  Would it be too much work and effort to prevent
extremist views from making it into the HL and thereby gaining some legitimacy?

Joe Szalai

E.Balogh wrote:

>        The lack of objectivity in viewing national histories is
>unfortunately the source of all sorts of evil. Without a critical overview
>of a nation's history we can't possibly even understand the present.

This is very true. That is why I am trying to argue with some people sometimes
on this NG.

>        I find Janos's total willigness to look at a different
>interpretation of Hungarian history disheartening.

However I do not know what willigness means, somehow I feel you are saying
that I look the Hungarian history through pink glasses.
Hmmm. Let's see:

You know as well as those who read Forum what is my opinion about the
'kalandozasok'. Of course my contributions to that debate might not be
big shots so one can easily forget about (or even did not read) them,
but they can be retrieved from the previous Forum issues.
Also, as I remember, you told on this NG that I wrote some nice contribution
about the wartime history of Hungary on the Forum. According you those were
based on facts and balanced.
Now as it turns to 1848 and our viewpoint is different, I become an 'idiot'
who reads history books (or don't even read :-)) and is not able to be
objective.

Something is really wrong with the high school history books in Hungary.
They are fine about the 'kalandozasok' and the wartime history of Hungary,
but they become blind patriots in the case of 1848.

Also it is not possible that the politicians of a nation made only mistakes
and wrong things. I do not remember any single case when you supported
a decission made by Hungarian leaders or Hungary. Of course this does not
mean that there is not such a case, but I still find it strainge. Isn't it
possible that rather your glasses are too grey?

Janos Zsargo

Oups! I made a mistake in my last post. I wrote that E.Balogh never supports
decissions made by Hungarian politicians. I forgot her sympathy toward the
recent economical program. Ok, but that is only one.

J.Zsargo