In >  (ROZSAAJ) writes: 
>
>Can anyone help me locate a source from which I can buy such wines as:
>
>  - Badacsonyi Szurkebarat
>  - Keknyelu
>  - Debroi Harslevelu
>  - Kadarka
>  - Egri Leanyka
>  - Mori Ezerjo
>  - Hajosi Cabernet
>    ..... and Oporto and Cabernet from Villany Mountains
>
>I sure would be very grateful for some help with my quest.  Additions
>and/or suggestions to my list of favorites are clearly most welcome.
>
>Cin-cin.....& egeszsegetekre.
>
>R˘zsa Bandi ---

We are treated very well here in California.  You can by some of the
Hungarian wines at Cost Plus, Trader Joe's, both of them are
specialized for foreign products. 

Yours,

Gabor M.

>  (Janos Szamosfalvi) writes
 
 
: Adrian ) wrote:

: Ok, you guys, before you build this "Hungarian" genius a statue in Buda,
: let's pause for a moment.
: The name Olah sounds familiar.  Isn't this what you guys used to call
: Romanian peasants in Transylvania ? 

Olah is a fairly common gipsy name.   It can also be used to describe 
people [any people] who is from TS.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>- did the Romanians make communication efforts like in a foreign country,

> speaking slowly, showing things, making gestures etc?
>
>-- Olivier 

Of course there can be problems with people who simply don't understand 
the language but this isn't usually the source of the agitation. I've been
told
by people who know both Hungarian and Romanian of going into shops where
*they knew* the staff could speak Romanian and being refused service
unless
they spoke Hungarian.

A particular story comes to mind where the gentleman's daughter personally
knew the girl who refused him service and knew that she spoke Romanian. 

It is this kind of BS that get's Romanians ticked off.

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In the tradition of Publius, Cato, and Centinel...
Decius Brutus

In article >  write
s:
>Were those just some exceptions ?
>I hope so.

I hope so too.
I too heard such kind of prejudiced people in Hungary, it is hard to argue
and to convince them.
But the young usually look more like the young everywhere, the hope is there.
-- Olivier

In article >,
Andras Nagy > wrote:
> I have seen this guy's movie in New York, ( in which he traveled across the 
> US), now I want my 8 dollars back !!!!

I think his name is Andrei Codrescu and he is quite good.  I wish there
was a Hungarian guy like that in the US.

Joe

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
  (02) (Prizzy-boy) writes :

 writes:
>This is ... interesting.
>A few years ago, when I was talking with the staff at the
>Hungarian Embassy in Washington DC, I was told that all
>Hungarian women are beautiful.

 Not all at all :-) ... but it does seem to me that there's an abundance 
 of beautiful women in Hungary as compared to many other European 
 countries.

OH, MY GOD ! (CAPS ON PURPOSE)
PRIZZY BOY AGAIN, OR MAYBE I SHOULD SAY, LOVER BOY
HIMSELF !!!!
OH, THAT SWEEEEET MAGYAR "PI--A", EH BOY ?
WHAT'S THE MATTER, GETING A LITTLE TIRED IN THE LAB
CHASING QUARKS AND SUCH, OR MAYBE ARE YOU
LOOKING FOR THE INVENTION TO BRING YOU A NOBEL
PRIZE, LIKE IT DID DR. OLAH  ?
LET'S SEE, TRY THE HUNGARIAN BIONIC CLONE OF
NO OTHER THAN CICCIOLINA, OR SHOULD I SAY  ILONA ?

 Er... that may hold even with my national bias substracted. :)

NATIONAL BIAS, YOU GOT TO BE KIDDING.

ANYWAY, WE CAN ASK CRISTIAN WHEN HE GETS BACK FROM
HIS TRIP TO BUDA  AS FAR AS THE LOCAL DISHES ARE
CONCERNED.
GOT ANY SIS.. , I MEAN TIPS, PRIZZY ?

 I could name some European places where the opposite seems to be true.
 Even if you take into account that "beauty is in the eye of the beholder".

NO SHIT, WHERE ?

>Michael B. Holt            | 

 Btw, a proverbal suggestion for female beauty is the Polinesian Isles.  :)

YEAH, LIKE THOSE FAT LIPS ?
ALL FOUR THAT IS ! (OH, PARDON THE LANGUAGE)

WHAT ABOUT YOU GABOR ?  

 Cheers,
 Miklos Prisznyak  

ALL THE BEST !!!

ADRIAN

In >  (02) writes:

 writes:
> [ all caps ranting deleted ]
>
>>ADRIAN
>
> I wonder if one needs to be Rumanian so that he can be such a butthead...
> or the other way around. 

With this very posting you have just proved that even a Hungarian can be
a perfect asshole.

Dan
--
Dan Pop
CERN, CN Division
Email:  
Mail:  CERN - PPE, Bat. 31 R-004, CH-1211 Geneve 23, Switzerland

On 9 Jun 1995, 02 wrote:

>  Wally, I think you're to explain to rain forest people what a 
>  cool place is Antartica... :-) 
>  Miklos Prisznyak

That's right, you hit the nail on the head, Priszy gyerek,
                                            Feye kerek
                                            Ora lapos
                                            Saya szaros,
a little cultural sensitivity wouldn't hurt, a little anthropological
avareness in his dealings with the 'natives' would go a long way !
 
m. cristian

* 7:30 PM 06/10/95 SATURDAY		TANCHAZ
****************************************

 Tanchaz by TISZA Ensemble - Traditional Hungarian Music and Dance
 Starting Point Dance Studio . From I495 take Route 1 South
 toward College Park . After passing the UM complex , make a left
 onto Calvert Rd. The studio is in the first building on your right,
 behind Clean and Lean Laudromat/Fitness Center

 Adm     : $4 ($3 for Tisza members)

 Tanchaz starts promptly at 7:30 with 15 minutes of instruction in basic 
 elements of Hungarian dancing, followed by 45 minutes of instruction in a 
 traditional Hungarian or Transylvanian dance.  Dancing to live and 
 recorded music ends the evening.  The basic steps of many of the dances 
 will be demonstrated in a special teaching circle while each dance is 
 going on.

 You may bring food or drink .  Please bring footwear 
 that will not damage the dance floor.

For this and other programs see the CALENDAR section of my WWW homepage!
--
personal email          : 
Hungarian-American list :  
WWW                     : http://www.glue.umd.edu/~gotthard

*       06/09/95-06/12/95		HUMAN RIGHTS WORKSHOP
****************************************
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 The Human Rights Workshop is co-sponsored by the History Department of 
 Shepherd College, the Hungarian American Coalition, the Hungarian 
 Communion of Friends and the Hungarian Human Rights Foundation. It is an 
 annual event dedicated to informing the attentive public and increasing 
 the activism and effectiveness of people who are committed to defend the 
 human rights of Hungarian minorities in Eastern and Central Europe. All 
 persons interested in the human rights struggle, particualrly college 
 and graduate school age individuals are encouraged to participate. This 
 year's workshop includes a trip to Washington, D.C. where participants 
 will participate in briefing sessions at the White House, State 
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 Registration fee is $50 plus $15 for the field trip. 

 If you would like to receive a detailed schedule and registration form, 
 send e-mail to 

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>Jeliko writes:

>>>>[...]Coming out of the east, they struggled
>>across the great mountains, and began to fight
>>against the neighbouring Vlakhs and Slavs. For the
>>Slavs had settled there first, but the Vlakhs had
>>seized the territory of the Slavs. The Magyars
>>subsequently expelled the Vlakhs, took their land,
>>and settled among the Slavs, whom they reduced
>>submission. From that time this  territory was called
>>Hungarian."<<<

>This region could not have been Moesia,

This comment caught me a bit by surprise as I had not
expressed that opinion before. I have suggested Moesia as
a possible interpretation for Nestor's reference to the
area where the Vlachs attacked the Danubian Slavs:
               "[...]beside the Danube, where Hungarian
               and Bulgarian lands NOW [that is, late
               11th or early 12th centuries, when the
               Chronicle was written and not at the time
               of the described events]lie" (Russian
               Primary Chronicle, page 53).

The excerpt you have quoted above is at page 62. True, I
have also speculated on the locations of the area
described there as "coming out of the east, across the
great mountains". However, I have not mentioned Moesia as
a possible interpretation but Transylvania (settled by
Slavs first, then conquered by Vlachs, and finally
occupied by Magyars) or Moravia (settled by Slavs first,
then conquered by Franks, and finally occupied by
Magyars).

>Besides which where is any record of the Hungarians
>"expelling" anybody but the East Franks form Hungary?

Well, in this context "expel" may have many meanings.
Let's just stress that Moldavian and Wallachian
chroniclers link the beginnings of Romanians to
immigrations from Transylvania. Dragos and Negru-Voda
Basarab must have had strong reasons to break up with
their Hungarian suzerain. Whatever those reasons, when the
vassal leaves the house of his lord "expel" is a term that
very easily comes to mind.

>Why on earth would they single out the Vlachs to
>"expel"?

Cristian has raised several interesting points. You may
subscribe to them or not. However, being unable to provide
a reasonable explanation for a historical fact does not
constitute proof against the very existence of that fact.

>>1.Nestor, if he was the author of the Russian
     Chronicle, wrote sometimes late in the 11th century
     or in the early 12th century. In that epoch a
     location described as "beside the Danube ›...| where
     the Hungarian and Bulgarian lands now lie" suggests
     Moesia and, maybe, present-day Muntenia. To the best
     of my knowledge, no Frank ever lived there.<<

>But even you stated that for earlier times he was
>copying Hamartoulus, and these events took place
>before the time of the writing of the Tales.

"Copying" is the misleading term here, a term that I have
not used. Nestor used Hamartolus' chronicle for the main
events and chronology. Trying to avoid geographical
ambiguities (sadly enough he was not too successful) he
wrote the Tales in his own words, with references to the
state boundaries existing during his own time.. Therefore,
not Hamartolus but Nestor is the one saying "where
Hungarian and Bulgarian lands NOW lie."

Actually, Hamartolus carried his chronicle only to 842 AD
(see p.23, Introduction) and, therefore, there is no way
he could have known where the Hungarian lands lie.
Moreover, the Introduction to the Chronicle presents the
sections of the Tale based wholly upon (!? copied from) the
Byzantine chronicle. The records pertaining to the
relationships between the Vlachs and Slavs that predate
the arrival of the Magyars are not part of this list. This
fact brings additional support to the claim that Nestor
used his own words when he says "where Hungarian and
Bulgarian lands now lie." NOW  refers to Nestor's days
(11th century) not Hamartolus' epoch (9th century).

>As stated above, at the time of the writing the border
>was between Bulgaria and Hungary along the lower
>Danube, but in the earlier times the border between
>the East Frank Empire and Bulgaria was in what is
>current Hungary.

Well, let's hope it's beyond any doubt now that Nestor had
in mind the lower Danubian border and, therefore, his
Vlachs are not Franks.

>The "Tales..." also state that "For when the Vlakhs
>attacked the Danubian Slavs, settled among them and
>did them violence,..." this clearly indicates a war,

Not necessary. During the times of emperor Constantine
VIII Vlachs historical records mention conducting from
their dwelling places in the mountains several expeditions
of ravage among the Bulgarian population. Clearly this
does not indicate a war.

>Also the "Tales.." is specific about the lower Danube
>when it refers to the(page 55) "Now while the Slavs
>dwelt along the Danube, as we have said, there came
>from among the Scythians, that is from the Khazars, a
>people called Bulgars who settled on the Danube and
>oppressed the Slavs (NOT THE VLACHS!).

Yes, the Vlachs are not mentioned but this does not mean
that they where not already present on the Danubian lands.
After its arrival on the Balkan peninsula in the late 7th
century, the tribe of the Bulgars was gradually
assimilated by the Slavic population that had preceded it
by at least a century. The oldest South Slavic loan words
in Romanian are dated to the East Latin epoch (5th to 7th
centuries). Also, the South Slavic word for church it
might be derived from the Romanian "biserica" (see,
Dvornik, F., 1956, The Slavs, their early history and
civilization).  Therefore, it is safe to state that when
the Bulgars have reached the Danubian lands the Vlachs and
the Slavs were already in close contact.

[...interesting but, in my opinion,
unrelated facts and data deleted...]

>thus again references to the Slav>Vlach>Hungarian
>movement was not for the lower Danube area.

I could not follow the reasoning behind the above
conclusion. Maybe you are kind enough to reformulate.

>>2.Nestor's source for the above events was probably the
     9th century Byzantine chronicle of Georgius
     Hamartolus. During those times Byzantine chroniclers
     used the name  Vlachs  for the Latin- speaking
     Balkan shepherds, that is, for the ancestors of the
     present-day Romanians. To the best of my knowledge,
     they never used the same name for the Franks.<<

>Disagree. As an example even the current name for
>Italy in Czech is "Vlachy" and in Polish "Wlochy" or
>see Hungarian Olasz from "Vlasi".

I don't see how these examples argue against my point.
Nestor' source is neither Czech nor Polish but Byzantine.
The Byzantine historians used the term Vlach for the
ancient Romanians living, in general, between Bulgarians.
They never used the same term for Franks.

>The description of Vlach is probably not Slavic but
>Gothic origin and referred to people speaking another
>language,

No. Vlach is a word derived THROUGH the medium of Slav
from an originally Germanic word for a stranger. My point
was that although the root is German, the spelling, as
used in the Balkan area, reflects the Slavic mediation.
Actually, it seems that the transfer from German to the
Slavic dialects took place not in the Balkan area but in
the original habitat of the Slavs. I can provide
references here, if necessary.

>(I am very sure that Cross, the translator of the
>"Tales..." is wrong in assuming that the reference is
>for Trajan's invasion of Dacia finding Slavs there.
>Footnote 29)

I'm not sure how this relates directly to the issue under
debate here. Cross may be wrong at endnote 29 but this
doesn't mean he is wrong using French for the Franks and
not Vlachs. However, despite your confidence, it is
possible that Cross and Sherbowitz-Wetzor are actually
correct. Laszlo Rhety [The nationalities of Dacia during
the Roman period, published in the 1886 Annual of the
Hungarian Archeological and Ethnographical Society,
Budapest] wrote in an excellent paper:
                    "At the time of Trajan [...] the
                    Slavs had reached the Black Sea,
                    other groups had reached
                    Transylvania, even as far as Orsova
                    on the Danube. This can be deduced
                    from Transylvania's Roman period
                    topography. The river names "Czerna"
                    and "Berzovia" could only have come
                    from the Slav: the one means "black"
                    and other, "swift", in all Slavic
                    dialects [...]It seems certain that
                    by the time of Trajan's conquest, a
                    numerically strong Slavic population
                    lived in Dacia..."

>>3.Let's assume that Nestor's Vlakhs were actually
     Franks. Then,  the reference to the country where
     "the Slavs had settled there first, but the Vlakhs
     had seized the territory"  (p.62) hints to Moravia
     and/or the region around Lake Balaton. From Nestor's
     perspective this justifies the phrase "where the
     Hungarian lands now lie" However, Nestor said "where
     the Hungarian AND BULGARIAN lands now lie" (p.53).
     Moreover, during late 11th and early 12th centuries
     the north boundary of the Bulgarian state was the
     lower Danube, far and away from the Moravian area.
     Therefore, the two references to Vlachs (p.53 and
     62) indicate two different events.<<

>What it shows specifically is that there were no
>Vlachs between the Hungarians and the Bulgarians at
>that time.

Between 1018 and 1185, that is almost in Nestor's days,
the administration of Bulgaria was divided by the
Byzantines into two "duchies". Paristrion, or
Paradounavis, included that part of Bulgaria between the
Danube and the Balkan mountains, had its seat at Drista
(Silistra) on the river. The other "duchy" was called
Bulgaria; its commander had its seat at Skoplye in
Macedonia. The Dukes of Paristrion were Vlachs. The
administrative division and the ethnicity of the
Paristrion's rulers emphasize the importance of the Vlach
element in the Moesian area (Wolf, R.L., 1949, The Second
Bulgarian Empire: Its Origin and History to 1204.
Speculum, 24, 167-206) Therefore, at that time the Vlachs
WERE present between Bulgarians and Hungarians, although
no country called Wallachia existed yet.

>>Nestor follows the Byzantine primary sources when he
>>uses the name Vlakhs, that is, he means Balkan
>>Latin-speaking shepherds. At page 53 they take
>>possession of the Danubian lands (Muntenia
>>included!?}

>THERE IS NO BASIS FOR THAT.

There is no basis for disregarding this possibility using
blank statements.

>>Later, at page 62 of   this chronicle, Nestor informs
>>that the Magyars, when invading modern Hungary, had
>>to fight not only the Slavs, but also Vlachs (in
>>Transylvania !?)

>THERE IS NO INDICATION THAT IT WAS IN TS.

Dvornik, a qualified historian not like me :-), states:
                    "The Russian Primary Chronicle is
                    probably well informed in stating
                    that the Magyars, when invading
                    modern Hungary, had to fight not
                    only the Slavs, but also Vlachs
                    "[1956, p.187]

BTW, Professor Dvornik of Harvard thinks that the Vlachs
are, without doubt, ancient Romanians.

>>It follows that Nestor suggests that his Vlachs moved
>>northward. Otherwise, one must accept that he used
>>the same name for two different people. BTW,
>>one can argue that Nestor's tale and the Chronicle of
>>the Cantacuzinos are in perfect agreement (cf., "the
>>beginnings" post).

>I am sorry but I do not see any northward movement
>indication from anywhere in the "Tales...".

That's OK. You should accept first that the Vlachs are
Romanians not Franks and then you'll have a better
picture. Another neutral scholar writes:
                    "Nestor vaguely suggests a movement
                    northwards of his Volochs, and
                    Romanians have therefore not been
                    keen to cite him as evidence of
                    continuous inhabitation by Latin-
                    speakers of the ancient province of
                    Dacia, or if they do they assume the
                    Volochs to be another race, which
                    they might well be"[p.118,
                    Winnifrith, T.J., 1987, The Vlachs:
                    The History of a Balkan People]

>>We can safely agree that the name "Vlach" was unknown
>>in the Balkans prior to the arrival of the Slavs (6th
>>or 5th century).

>Disagree, the name was started by the Goths who
>started it to distinguish between Greek and Latin
>speakers.

Although the root may be Germanic, the Goths never used
the form Vlach. The Slavs introduced it in the Balkan area
(see above).

>However, as far as the "Tales..." are concerned it is
>also important to see where it places the various
>people and what names he uses for them in the original
>Russian text.

Well, maybe you can provide reliable references which show
that at page 51 and 52 Cross and Sherbowitz-Wetzor
mistakenly used the name French and/or omitted the Vlachs.


A multitude of records before, during and after the times of
Nestor indicate that Vlachs were ancient Romanians. There is no
reason to belive that the Russian Chronicle makes an exception.
In how many other documents are the Franks called Vlachs ?

Liviu Iordache

In article >,  writ
es:
....
|> Further clarification (looks like is necessary)
|> 
|> > In article > 
|>    Adrian > writes:
|> > >- When I was 6 years old in Sf. Ghorghe visiting relatives 
|>    the Bread
|> > >store attendant refused to sell me bread.
|> 
|> I pointed out with my finger and showed the bread I wanted.
|> Later, my grandmother intervened this time
|> in Hungarian (She was born in Hungary proper) and the bread 
|> was obtained.
|> 
|> > >- MY cousin while visiting Ghorghieni with his father where refused
|> > >information about a room available at a local mountain hotel.
|> 
|> As far as I was told grown up people pretended  not to speak or
|> understand a word of Romanian.
|> 
|> > >- Another cousin with her parents in TG. Mures where refused service
|> > >at a Ice cream vending place.
|> 
|> The ice cream vendor basically was selling to some locals ice cream but 
|> when my cousin showed up and ask for some she closed the wooden
|> window
|> in their noses answering something in Hungarian and it sure wasn't 
|> closing time.
|> 
|> > >- My aunt was refused service in a Pharmacy in Tusnad.
|> 
|> The pharmacist basically refused to communicate in Romanian.
|> 
|> > > All this incidents were caused because the Secui refused to speak 
|> > >Romanian.
|>  
|> I think that should explain it.
|> 
|> By the way, in TG. Mures before the riot in 1990, there were some stores
|> where in the window it was written something to the effect No Romanian
|> spoken here.  My point is that these attitudes will only cause probles
|> for everyone.
|> 
|> By the way, another interesting situation related to me by my grandmother
|> is that during her trip to Budapest (some 20 years ago) with other Romanian
|>  people while crossing the street and speaking in Romanian she could
|> overhear other Hungarians making derogatory remarks at her group in 
|> Hungarian of course.
|> 
|> Were those just some exceptions ?
|> I hope so.
|> 
|> Adrian
|> 

So what is your point? What do you want to prove? Whenever a Hungarian posted h
ere
proofs of discrimaination against her/him because of her/his nationality, there
came the answer that those had been just stories, or in the best case isolated
cases, not discrimination against Hungarians in genral... So what is the
difference? And don't try to give me the crap that everyone living in Romania h
as
to know Romanian. The fact that Romanian is "the only official language" doesn'
t
make it compulsory - necessary maybe, but in some cases not even that.

Matyas
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Please report any problems, inappropriate use etc. to .

Hogy van?

I am sorry, but that is about all of my Hungarian expertise.

I would appreciate any information on the origin and meaning of the
name Toth (Tóth).

My paternal grandfather was born in Satoraljaujhely, Hungary.  To the best
of my knowledge, he had one sister and was orphaned at a young age.

I do not know who she was or anything about by grandfather or his sister's
family.  I am starting a quest in order to learn more about my ancestry.

Thanks in advance,

Joe Tóth

please E-mail to 

Nestor on Vlachs
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     >Liviu Iordache > wrote: 
     >
      wrote:
     >
     >>i do not think the geographical reference given by Nestor is that 
     >>vague.
     > 
     >It is vague because one doesn't know how far west the Magyars moved 
     >after they crossed the "great mountains".  Personally, I think that 
     >Nestor's Vlachs are actually early Romanians but one cannot ignore 
     >that the Russian Chronicle's references to the Vlachs are far from 
     >being very precise.
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     well, i think we disagree only on semantic grounds here :-)  however, 
     the vagueness can be restricted to 2 areas here:  the transylvanian 
     plateau between the east carpathians and the west (apuseni) 
     carpathians, or the pannonian plain west of the apuseni mountains.
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     >>nowhere in the text Nestor SUGGESTS a northward movement of the 
     >>Vlakhs.
     > 
     >You're  kidding, right? 
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     no, i was not.  i just missed nestor's translated records on p. 53.  
     error humanum est, professore ;-)  other than that, i mostly agree 
     with your comments on my statement above.  also i will research this 
     when i get back from my vacation.
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     >It follows that the  "Daco-roman" people, an invented missing link, 
     >is not needed anymore to explain > the origin of the Romanian people.
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     well, it is not that clear.  it is very hard to assert such a 
     definitive statement - we need to look at many more aspects, such as 
     archeology, linguistics and toponimy, all available extant historical 
     records, etc.  
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     >>Cinnamus clearly mentions that the  force led by Batatzes, and which 
     >>included Vlachs, was FROM  ABROAD ...| we can, again, make a 
     >>deduction that they were possibly collected north of the danube.
     > 
     >Any deduction based on circumstantial evidence is a speculation.
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     true - but so are almost all other support arguments for the north 
     migration theory and the magyars-first-in-transylvania theory.  one 
     can only argue a MOST LIKELY SCENARIO by considering ALL RELEVANT 
     FACTORS, not a single source. 
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     >>>Your conclusion that the 4th and 5th references prove the presence 
     >>>of latin-speaking people in present-day Romania between 10th and 
     >>>12th centuries represents an overstatement.
     >> 
     >>i don't believe i stated that based SOLELY upon the chronicles of 
     >>Cinnamus and Nicetas Choniates
     > 
      wrote:
     >>>>in addition, the byzantine chroniclers Cinnamus and Nicetos 
     >>>>Choniates mention the presence of latin-speaking people in 
     >>>>present-day romania between the Xth and the XIIth centuries.
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     well, your quote does not change the fact that i have never stated 
     that based upon SOLELY (ONLY) CINNAMUS AND NICETOS CHONIATES sources, 
     one can conclude that romanians were present in transylvania before 
     the magyars.  what i think is correct is that based upon all 5 
     chroniclers (anonymous, nestor, gardisi, cinnamus, choniates, and a 
     few more i will reference later), one can conclude that most likely 
     romanians inhabited transylvania BEFORE THE MAGYARS ARRIVED THERE.
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     >>although vlachs lived in the balkan peninsula (ie. south of the 
     >>danube)for centuries, they were mentioned as late as the 10th 
     >>century  for the first time.  shall we then conclude that they did 
     >>not exist there PRIOR to then?
     > 
     >We can safely agree that the name "Vlach" was unknown in the Balkans 
     >prior to the arrival of the Slavs (6th > or 5th century). There is an 
     >apparently unbridgeable gap between the  submerging of the Latin 
     >speaking part of the Balkans, under waves of  barbarian invaders at
     >the end of the 6th century, and the first  emergence of the Vlachs in 
     >written records, several centuries later.  However, a note found in 
     >the monastery of Kastamonitou mentions 8th century Vlachs as coming 
     >from Bulgaria across Macedonia to Athos. Further, there are earlier  
     >indirect records, going as far back as to the 6th century, that point 
     >to the existence of romance- or Latin-speaking people in the Balkans: 
     >Miraculla Sanctii Demetrii (7th century), the Strategicon of Maurice
     >(?602 AD), the "torna, torna..." tale (586  ?579AD), and Procopius   
     >6th century list of forts that includes place-names considered 
     >unmistakably Vlach (Skeptekasas, Burgulatu, Lupofantana, 
     >Gemellomuntes). Therefore, the forefathers of the Vlachs did live in 
     >the Balkans prior to 10th century, but they were not called Vlachs. 
     >We cannot be certain, for example, whether the Strategicon is talking 
     >about stragglers north of the Danube or of stragglers further south. 
     >However, they are called, very suggestively, Ro^maioi.
     > 
     > Liviu Iordache
     --------------------------------------------------------------------- 
     
     well, my question was retorical, although i think it deserves your 
     answer, anyway :-)
     
     my original point was that although vlachs (or latin-speaking folks) 
     existed in the balkans since the roman withdrawal, they were almost 
     not mentioned by the byzantines at all.  and, under the name of 
     vlachs, they were first mentioned at the year 976.
     
     then, how can we be surprised that latin-speaking folks living NORTH 
     OF THE DANUBE were not mentioned (or only indirectly mentioned) during 
     that same time span?
     
     the explanation is quite simple, though:  the byzantine chroniclers 
     only bothered to mention folks that were of relevance to their empire, 
     relevance based upon conflicts or other events of great importance to 
     the byzantine state.  how can a conceivably romance speaking 
     population in transylvania, a pastoralist culture can be of any remote 
     importance to the byzantines?  
     
     therefore, the argument that because latin-speaking folks were not 
     mentioned between 5th-10th century in transylvania, and so it follows 
     that they were not there, does not stand.  this was my original point. 
     and, in a previous post, i gave as an example the avars who, after the 
     mid 7th century, when they ceased to be a power, they became almost 
     extinct from the byzantine chronicles.  but, of course, they still 
     existed and liveed in the area as people - the byzantines just  did 
     not give a hoot about them anymore.  i think it is very relevant that 
     the vlachs started to be mentioned a lot when the 2 vlach brothers, 
     John and Asan, became a catalyst for vlach insurgency within the 
     byzantine empire - boy, did those chroniclers care about them then!
     
     anyway, i will continue the debate when i get back from my vacation.  
     gotta pack now, so if you post anything relevant to this subject, you 
     can send it to my private e-mail address....
     
     ciao,
     
     -cristiano

 (Janos Szamosfalvi) wrote:

>If he were a "Romanian peasant de[s]cent" he'd speak Romanian. 

My children do not speak any Romanian, yet when asked what their
ethnic is, they invariably respond: Romanian. My wife claims to be
Irish, but she doesn't speak a word of Gaelic. A good friend of mine
is an ethnic Jew, and, although he doesn't speak any Romanian, he
calls himself a Romanian and, in many respects, he is more so than
some of the s.c.r. contributors who claim to be "Romani verzi".

My point is that ethnicity is more than just the language someone
speaks. 

Dorin Taranul

In article >,
55000-Weisz Guy(ih9999)999 > wrote:
>
>My cousin in Budapest died suddenly and unexpectedly of a heart 
>attack on May 20th.  I talked
>to his wife on the phone yesterday (June 6th) and she indicated that his
>funeral was scheduled by the "authorities" on June 9th, 20 days after his
>death.  This feels terrible to me, but she seemed to take it as a 
>"normal" thing.

Well, perhaps he died in a hospital and they decided to use his cadaver
as a teaching aid for medical students.  When they were done, they
released it (or whatever remained of him) to his family.  Similar thing
happened to my father when he died in a hospital.  I don't know if his
body was used for teaching, but it was autopsied and they took their time
with it.  In Hungary the feudal system lives on in the medical
establishment.  I bet this is pretty much the same in the rest of the
former Bloc.

Joe

To:  (Gabor Morocz)
Subject: Re: Source for Hungarian wine

Subj: Re: Source for Hungarian wine  Conf: (17) soc.culture.m
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
G >>>Can anyone help me locate a source from which I can buy such wines as:
G >>>
G >>>  - Badacsonyi Szurkebarat
G >>>  - Keknyelu

G >>We are treated very well here in California.  You can by some of the
G >>Hungarian wines at Cost Plus, Trader Joe's, both of them are
G >>specialized for foreign products.

G >>Yours,

G >>Gabor M.


Okeedokee, Gabor.  I am really pleased for you.  Now how about some
phone numbers for us, pleading for help with parched lips, here in the
hinterlands of Alabama, huh? ;-(


Komolyan..... lehet bort vasarolni Trader Joe-tol vagy a
Cost Plus-tol Alabama-bol? Ha igen, hogy?  Minden segitseget nagyon
szepen koszonjuk.

Bandi

---
 ţ QMPro 1.53 ţ ţ OLX 1.53 ţ My reality check just bounced.

In article >, Charles Vamossy
> wrote:

> [CThe New York Hungarian House would be glad to cover the cost of shipping th
e
> book collection -- or pick them up, if that's reasonable.


To whom it may concern,

I am also willing to pay for the shipment of the books so that they can go
into the NEW Hungarian House in San Diego.

Since Charles Vamossy is also willing to do the same thing for his
Hungarian House, I'm willing to share and split the collection in half,
unless there are other takers.

If you have any questions let me know.

Thanks

Istvan Mihaly

On Fri, 9 Jun 1995, Arpad F. Kovacs wrote:
......

> For this and other programs see the CALENDAR section of my WWW homepage!
> --
> personal email          : 
> Hungarian-American list :  
> WWW                     : http://www.glue.umd.edu/~gotthard

Just to make it clear, I guess, what Arpad meant, to take a look at my 
homepage (Gotthard), except he left in an old sig of mine in his repost.
Gotthard

--
Hungarian-American list, mailto:  
WWW,                       http://www.glue.umd.edu/~gotthard

>My cousin in Budapest died suddenly and unexpectedly of a heart 
>attack on May 20th.  I talked
>to his wife on the phone yesterday (June 6th) and she indicated that his
>funeral was scheduled by the "authorities" on June 9th, 20 days after his
>death.  This feels terrible to me, but she seemed to take it as a 
>"normal" thing.

>Can someone explain this delay to me?  Is this bureaucracy, or something else?
>This is to be a completely secular service, so no religious circumstances
>are involved.

>Any help you can give would be appreciated. I can't change things, but maybe
>I can understand it better.

20 days is VERY quick - sometimes, especially in the wintertime it takes 2-3 
months. You must remember, that in Hungary it's not John Deere backhoes that 
dig the grave, but men (in Budapest mostly Gypsies) with spades. Everything 
else is done the same old fashioned way, and this takes time.
Even with Orthodox Jews, it takes sometimes a week.
Tom Sulyok
Los Angeles

good kokes keep it up

In article >
Hermes,  writes:
>Priszy gyerek,
>                                            Feye kerek
Feje kerek
>                                            Ora lapos
Orra lapos
>                                            Saya szaros,
Sza'ja szaros

I like this say . I heard and said it last time
long, long ago.

>a little cultural sensitivity wouldn't hurt,

I appreciate your try in Hungarian however because
of your louzy spelling ;) I oblige you to give us a simi-
lar kid say in Romanian.. 

Tamás

 (02) wrote:
 (Michael Dsida) writes:
>>I recently stumbled across the name of a Hungarian poet, Jeno Dsida, 
>>with the same last name as me.  I know nothing about my Hungarian 
>
> The correct spelling is Jeno" Dzsida. 
>
>>ancestry (I am 1/8 Hungarian), but I would love to find out more about 
>>the poet, his work, whether he is related....  Does anyone out there have 
>>any suggestions? 
>
> Since his works aren't taught in school I hardly know about him. :(
> ( Flame on me.. ) I happen to recall he lived and worked in the 30's 
> and he was poetically akin to Babics. 
>
>>Mike Dsida
>
> Regards,
> 
>-- 
> Pm
>>----
> Miklos Prisznyak   (KFKI RMKI Theor. Dep. Budapest, Hungary H-1525 P.O.B 49)
><A HREF="http://sgi30.rmki.kfki.hu/~prisz/prisz.html">My Personal WEB Page </A
>

Dsida, Jeno (Szatmar, May 17, 1907; died June 7 1938, at Cluj (Kolozsvar)
Dsida was a Hungarian poet living in Romania. He studied law at Kolozsvar and e
ventually worked at various law offices at Szatmar an=
d Kolozsvar. He edited various literary journals in the 1920s and 1930s. He eve
ntually became the secretary of the Romanian branch o=
f the Pen Club. He died at a young age. He was a most promising talent amongst 
the writers of Transylvania. His works were published=
 from 1928 on. HIs selected works were published in Budapest in 1958.
(Leselkedo Magany, Kolozsvar, 1928; Nagycsutortok, Kolzsvar, 1933, Magyar Karav
an Italian keresztul, Nagyvarad, 1933; Angyalok citer=
ajan, Kolozsvar, 1938; Valogatott versek, Budapest 1944; toparti konyorges, 195
8; Arany es kek szavakkal, 1965. 
For English translation search the Hungarian Quarterly or the New Hungarian Qua
rterly.

 (Wally Keeler) writes:
  
 [ an obnoxious letter addressed to Wally deleted ]

 Wally, I think you're to explain to rain forest people what a 
 cool place is Antartica... :-) 
>-- 
>Wally Keeler					Poetry

 Cheers,

-- 
 Pm
>----
 Miklos Prisznyak   (KFKI RMKI Theor. Dep. Budapest, Hungary H-1525 P.O.B 49)
<A HREF="http://sgi30.rmki.kfki.hu/~prisz/prisz.html">My Personal WEB Page </A>

 (Michael Dsida) writes:
>I recently stumbled across the name of a Hungarian poet, Jeno Dsida, 
>with the same last name as me.  I know nothing about my Hungarian 

 The correct spelling is Jeno" Dzsida. 

>ancestry (I am 1/8 Hungarian), but I would love to find out more about 
>the poet, his work, whether he is related....  Does anyone out there have 
>any suggestions? 

 Since his works aren't taught in school I hardly know about him. :(
 ( Flame on me.. ) I happen to recall he lived and worked in the 30's 
 and he was poetically akin to Babics. 

>Mike Dsida

 Regards,
 
-- 
 Pm
>----
 Miklos Prisznyak   (KFKI RMKI Theor. Dep. Budapest, Hungary H-1525 P.O.B 49)
<A HREF="http://sgi30.rmki.kfki.hu/~prisz/prisz.html">My Personal WEB Page </A>

 writes:
 [ all caps ranting deleted ]

>ADRIAN

 I wonder if one needs to be Rumanian so that he can be such a butthead...
 or the other way around. 

   

-- 
 Pm
>----
 Miklos Prisznyak   (KFKI RMKI Theor. Dep. Budapest, Hungary H-1525 P.O.B 49)
<A HREF="http://sgi30.rmki.kfki.hu/~prisz/prisz.html">My Personal WEB Page </A>

 (Kyle Gryphon) writes:

>But as the sole voice for all the Hungarian peoples (including their 
>closest
>relatives), wouldnt it be doing the state's DUTY offering patriation to 
>these peoples.  With a population of over 10.5 million, absorbing another 
>30,000
>could not possibly burden the Hungarian government.  If these groups are 
 
 I regret very much to say this but unfortunately there are even sentiments
 in Hungary against *Hungarians*  who flee their homeland. There's a very
 deep economic crisis in Hungary. (I must add that now  the bacteria themselves
  are trusted to cure the illness. :-(  )
 
 >Russified, it will be a loss to Hungary and Hungarian culture.  Yes, I 
>know they dont look like Hungarians and don't speak a language 
>intelligible to Hungarian, but their culture IS  a part of Magyar culture,
> and shouldn't be
>allowed to wane in the grasp of Russia's claws.

 I still don't see how Khanty-Manysi culture is a part of Hungarian culture.
 Please elaborate on that. 

 However I certainly agree that we must do our best to support these people.
 Yes, there should be much more done than  organize those  rare Finn-Ugorian 
 conferences. 

 Regards,
 
-- 
 Pm
>----
 Miklos Prisznyak   (KFKI RMKI Theor. Dep. Budapest, Hungary H-1525 P.O.B 49)
<A HREF="http://sgi30.rmki.kfki.hu/~prisz/prisz.html">My Personal WEB Page </A>

I apologize for my previous poster to decent Rumanian netters. 
 True I have yet to see they're the majority. 

-- 
 Pm
>----
 Miklos Prisznyak   (KFKI RMKI Theor. Dep. Budapest, Hungary H-1525 P.O.B 49)
<A HREF="http://sgi30.rmki.kfki.hu/~prisz/prisz.html">My Personal WEB Page </A>