Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 599
Copyright (C) HIX
1996-03-06
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 WELCOME TO THE CONSTITUENT ELECTRONIC MAIL SERVICE (mind)  2 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: WELCOME TO THE CONSTITUENT ELECTRONIC MAIL SERVICE (mind)  7 sor     (cikkei)
3 Canada and 1956 (mind)  71 sor     (cikkei)
4 Canada and 1956 (mind)  127 sor     (cikkei)
5 A bubos kemence (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)
6 (Fwd) (Fwd) A bubos kemence (mind)  117 sor     (cikkei)
7 A test (mind)  5 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: Soros wrongdoings---a short list (mind)  71 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: Soros wrongdoings---a short list (mind)  51 sor     (cikkei)
10 Sub-Carpathia (part 2) (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: WWI or WWII? (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: Soros wrongdoings---a short list (mind)  5 sor     (cikkei)
13 Labor Unions (Formerly Health insurance) (mind)  43 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: Health insurance (mind)  56 sor     (cikkei)
15 Soros wrongdoings---a short list (mind)  196 sor     (cikkei)

+ - WELCOME TO THE CONSTITUENT ELECTRONIC MAIL SERVICE (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

NEWT GINGRICH
MEMBER OF CONGRESS
+ - Re: WELCOME TO THE CONSTITUENT ELECTRONIC MAIL SERVICE (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 01:34 AM 3/5/96 EST, you wrote:
>NEWT GINGRICH
>MEMBER OF CONGRESS
>
This is really funny!

Gabor D. Farkas
+ - Canada and 1956 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

This year we are celebrating the 40th anniversary of the Hungarian
revolution of 1956. On this occasion I would like to share with the members
of the Hungarian discussion group the result of my latest research. Here is
part 1.




The Hungarian Refugee Student Movement of 1956-57 and Canada

        A country's brain drain usually benefits other countries. Such was
Hungary's case in 1956.  According to a contemporary report based on police
records over 3,200 university and college students, 11.2% of this number,
left Hungary permanently as a direct consequence of the Hungarian
revolution of 1956.  This report, however, is based on a count of 90% of
the Hungarians who escaped from Hungary and only on those refugees whose
departure was reported to the police. If the proportion of students was the
same in the unaccounted part of the refugee group, based on the quoted
Hungarian Central Statistical Bureau (K.S.H.) report, about 3550 university
students than the previous year may have reached the West. However, another
publication of the K.S.H. paints a different picture.   According to the
K.S.H.'s 1958 Yearbook,  7,900 fewer students had registered at Hungarian
universities in September 1957. Their numbers declined from 40,800 to
32,900. The day-student population declined by 4,900, from 28,900 to
24,000. This decline  was not entirely due to emigration. Some students
were arrested and imprisoned or expelled for revolutionary activities. The
base was reduced when a large number of high school graduates emigrated and
quite a few 18-year olds, many of them eager to avoid the draft, emigrated.
The majority of those who did not appear on the 1957/58 university student
roll in Hungary, however, left the country and hoped to continue their
studies abroad. It is possible that 1,500 day students who stayed behind
discontinued their studies. In that case these two K.S.H. reports do not
contradict each other.  On the other hand, in January 1957, the
Coordinating Committee for International Help to Hungarian Refugee
Students, received a report from the World University Service that 1,800
students had left Austria each with a scholarship or the prospect of a
scholarship while 3,000 students  were awaiting placement.  The Canadian
ambassador reported from Vienna that between November 1956 and April 1957
the World University Service registered approximately 6,800 Hungarian
refugee students in Austria.  In Yugoslavia an additional 1,326 students
were enumerated.  The total now was 8,126. The Congress of Free Hungarian
Students in Paris compiled a catalogue of 7,948 registered Hungarian
refugee university students who left Hungary in 1956 or 1957. The
definition of the term "post-secondary student" accounts for the
discrepancy between the K.S.H. and the Austrian data.

        The refugee students were not all regular university students. Many
were evening or correspondence  university or college students,  high
school students, or postgraduates. A few were dropouts, expelled students,
individuals who pretended to be students in order to get better treatment
in the West, and young non-Hungarian refugees from other communist
countries who escaped to Austria  by way of Hungary. All were placed on the
student university lists, if requested, in collusion with the enumerators.
No papers were demanded.  There were also a few unregistered students who
were never listed because they left Austria quickly and emigrated with the
help of friends or relatives and found jobs for themselves within or
outside academia. I estimate the bona fide refugee university students to
be around 5,000, that is, one sixth of the total post-secondary student
population. The exact number of student refugees, however, cannot be
established. Certainly, most Western democracies competed for the prized
immigrants and promised aid to help  complete their  studies.  Canada was
one of these countries.


Peter I. Hidas

Hungarian Studies
Department Of Russian and Slavic Studies
McGill University
Montreal, Quebec, Canada

+ - Canada and 1956 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

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This year we are celebrating the 40th anniversary of the Hungarian
revolution of 1956. On this occasion I would like to share with the members
of the Hungarian discussion group the result of my latest research. Here is
part 1.



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The Hungarian Refugee Student Movement of 1956-57 and Canada1
A country's brain drain usually benefits other countries. Such was
Hungary's case in 1956.  According to a contemporary report based on police
records over 3,200 university and college students, 11.2% of this number,
left Hungary permanently as a direct consequence of the Hungarian
revolution of 1956.2 This report, however, is based on a count of 90% of
the Hungarians who escaped from Hungary and only on those refugees whose
departure was reported to the police. If the proportion of students was the
same in the unaccounted part of the refugee group, based on the quoted
Hungarian Central Statistical Bureau (K.S.H.) report, about 3550 university
students than the previous year may have reached the West. However, another
publication of the K.S.H. paints a different picture.3  According to the
K.S.H.'s 1958 Yearbook,  7,900 fewer students had registered at Hungarian
universities in September 1957. Their numbers declined from 40,800 to
32,900. The day-student population declined by 4,900, from 28,900 to
24,000. This decline  was not entirely due to emigration. Some students
were arrested and imprisoned or expelled for revolutionary activities. The
base was reduced when a large number of high school graduates emigrated and
quite a few 18-year olds, many of them eager to avoid the draft, emigrated.
The majority of those who did not appear on the 1957/58 university student
roll in Hungary, however, left the country and hoped to continue their
studies abroad. It is possible that 1,500 day students who stayed behind
discontinued their studies. In that case these two K.S.H. reports do not
contradict each other.  On the other hand, in January 1957, the
Coordinating Committee for International Help to Hungarian Refugee
Students, received a report from the World University Service that 1,800
students had left Austria each with a scholarship or the prospect of a
scholarship while 3,000 students  were awaiting placement.4 The Canadian
ambassador reported from Vienna that between November 1956 and April 1957
the World University Service registered approximately 6,800 Hungarian
refugee students in Austria.5 In Yugoslavia an additional 1,326 students
were enumerated.6 The total now was 8,126. The Congress of Free Hungarian
Students in Paris compiled a catalogue of 7,948 registered Hungarian
refugee university students who left Hungary in 1956 or 1957. The
definition of the term "post-secondary student" accounts for the
discrepancy between the K.S.H. and the Austrian data.

        The refugee students were not all regular university students. Many  we
r
 e
evening or correspondence  university or college students,  high school
students, or postgraduates. A few were dropouts, expelled students,
individuals who pretended to be students in order to get better treatment
in the West, and young non-Hungarian refugees from other communist
countries who escaped to Austria  by way of Hungary. All were placed on the
student university lists, if requested, in collusion with the enumerators.
No papers were demanded.7 There were also a few unregistered students who
were never listed because they left Austria quickly and emigrated with the
help of friends or relatives and found jobs for themselves within or
outside academia. I estimate the bona fide refugee university students to
be around 5,000, that is, one sixth of the total post-secondary student
population. The exact number of student refugees, however, cannot be
established. Certainly, most Western democracies competed for the prized
immigrants and promised aid to help  complete their  studies.  Canada was
one of these countries.

1This project was made possible with financial assistance of
Multiculturalism and Citizenship Canada and the Research Institute for the
Study of the Hungarian Revolution of 1956, Budapest.

2 "KSH-jelent=E9s az 1956-os disszid=E1l=E1sr=F3l," [KSH Report about the 19=
56
Defections] Regio   2, No.4 (1991): 174-211; Gyula V=E1rallyay,
"Tanulm=E1ny=FAton" Az emigr=E1ns magyar di=E1kmozgalom  1956 ut=E1n  [On a =
Study
Trip; The Emigr=E9 HungarianStudent Movement after 1956] (Budapest:
Sz=E1zadv=E9g, 1956-os Int=E9zet, 1992):  85.

3Magyar statisztikai zsebk=F6nyv (XVIII. =E9vfolyam) 1958 [Hungarian
Statistical Pocket Book (volume 18) 1958] (K=F6zgazdas=E1gi =E9s Jogi K=F6ny=
vkiad=F3,
Budapest, 1958):  20.


4The Problem of Hungarian Refugees in Austria, submitted by the High
Commissioner, A/AC. 79/49, United Nations, General Assembly, Chief
Executive Committee, Fourth Session, 17 January 1957.

5J.S.Macdonald, Ambassador, Vienna, to the [L.B. Pearson] Secretary of
State for External Affairs, Ottawa, 25 April 1957, National Archives of
Canada (cited hereafter as NAC),Records of the Department of Citizenship
and Immigration: RG 26, 1880-1979 (cited hereafter as RG 26), Int.180, Box
863, File 555-54-562-2, part 2.

6 M.H.Wershof, Permanent Representative, The Permanent Mission of Canada to
the European Office of the United Nations, Geneva, to the Undersecretary of
State, 5 July 1957,  NAC,  Records of the Immigration Branch (RG 76), Box
862, File 555-54-565,Hungarian Refugee-policies, pt. 3.

7Professor Charles Taylor, McGill University, the representative of the
Canadian Students Organization in Vienna in 1956/57, interview, 16 November
1995, Montreal.





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Peter I. Hidas

Hungarian Studies
Department Of Russian and Slavic Studies
McGill University
Montreal, Quebec, Canada




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+ - A bubos kemence (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Forgive me if this information ends up being posted to the list twice, but I
sent a posting yesterday and it seems to have disappeared.

About five or more years ago I desinged a traveling exhibit about the kemence
for the American Hungarian Foundation in New Brunswick, New Jersey. Three
models were contructed one of which was a bubos kemence in a typical nineteenth
century Hungarian peasant house. Another model dispayed the method of
construction, which traditionally was not brick, but wattle. I also assembled a
brief slide presentation about the kemence. My grandparents had a kemence on
their farm in Louisiana and I remember my grandfather preparing it for baking
and my grandmother baking the bread. There is material in the AHF library about
the kemence, but useful detailed information is only in Hungarian.  The most
informative work with kemence building plans is:

                        Sabjan, Tibor
                        A bubos kemence.
                        Muzsak Kozmuvelodesi Kiado, 1988

                        L.C call number: TH7436.E4S23 1988
--
Bob Hosh
E-mail: 
+ - (Fwd) (Fwd) A bubos kemence (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

--
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--- Forwarded mail from "Bob Hosh" >

From: "Bob Hosh" >
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 09:04:34 -0500
To: 
Subject: (Fwd) A bubos kemence

Amos, none of my postings to the Hungary list are getting there, would you
please forward this message?  I do reveive the list postings.

Thanks,
Bob
--
Bob Hosh
E-mail: 

[ Message from "Bob Hosh" > ] :

From: "Bob Hosh" >
Message-Id: >
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 08:12:56 -0500
X-Mailer: Z-Mail Lite (3.2.0 5jul94)
To: 
Subject: A bubos kemence
Cc: hosh
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Forgive me if this information ends up being posted to the list twice, but I
sent a posting yesterday and it seems to have disappeared.

About five or more years ago I desinged a traveling exhibit about the kemence
for the American Hungarian Foundation in New Brunswick, New Jersey. Three
models were contructed one of which was a bubos kemence in a typical nineteenth
century Hungarian peasant house. Another model dispayed the method of
construction, which traditionally was not brick, but wattle. I also assembled a
brief slide presentation about the kemence. My grandparents had a kemence on
their farm in Louisiana and I remember my grandfather preparing it for baking
and my grandmother baking the bread. There is material in the AHF library about
the kemence, but useful detailed information is only in Hungarian.  The most
informative work with kemence building plans is:

                        Sabjan, Tibor
                        A bubos kemence.
                        Muzsak Kozmuvelodesi Kiado, 1988

                        L.C call number: TH7436.E4S23 1988
--
Bob Hosh
E-mail: 



--- End of forwarded mail from "Bob Hosh" >

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 >: text/plain
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Amos, none of my postings to the Hungary list are getting there, would you
please forward this message?  I do reveive the list postings.

Thanks,
Bob
--
Bob Hosh
E-mail: 

--PART-BOUNDARY=.19603050921.ZM3661.rutgers.edu
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 >: Message from "Bob Hosh" >
Content-Type: message/rfc822

From: "Bob Hosh" >
Message-Id: >
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 08:12:56 -0500
X-Mailer: Z-Mail Lite (3.2.0 5jul94)
To: 
Subject: A bubos kemence
Cc: hosh
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Forgive me if this information ends up being posted to the list twice, but I
sent a posting yesterday and it seems to have disappeared.

About five or more years ago I desinged a traveling exhibit about the kemence
for the American Hungarian Foundation in New Brunswick, New Jersey. Three
models were contructed one of which was a bubos kemence in a typical nineteenth
century Hungarian peasant house. Another model dispayed the method of
construction, which traditionally was not brick, but wattle. I also assembled a
brief slide presentation about the kemence. My grandparents had a kemence on
their farm in Louisiana and I remember my grandfather preparing it for baking
and my grandmother baking the bread. There is material in the AHF library about
the kemence, but useful detailed information is only in Hungarian.  The most
informative work with kemence building plans is:

                        Sabjan, Tibor
                        A bubos kemence.
                        Muzsak Kozmuvelodesi Kiado, 1988

                        L.C call number: TH7436.E4S23 1988
--
Bob Hosh
E-mail: 


--PART-BOUNDARY=.19603050921.ZM3661.rutgers.edu--
+ - A test (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

This is a test.

--
Bob Hosh
E-mail: 
+ - Re: Soros wrongdoings---a short list (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In 1994-1995 I was an exchange student in Hungary.  I spent a year
studying the culture, the people and the language.  I know speak
Hungarian fluently and I love the culture.  Not only did I develop a
passion for the country, but I also greew up inside more than I can even
believe.  Now, a year after I have returned, I am still discovering new ways
that I have changed, new ways I am able to relate to people, new ways I
approach each day.  Last year was by far the most influencial year of my
life.  It was funded partly by George Soros.
        The program that sponsored me in America was the Rotary
Foundation, an extensive international club of businessmen and wemen.
They are dedicated to providing service on a llocal, national and
international level, and the exchange student program is part of ther
"service to youth."  My district was unable to contact a Rotary club in
Hungary which was willing to host students, and they found the Soros
Foundation.  Through the Foundation, I was placed in three families,
given a monthly stipend of approximately 3,000 forints, and placed in a
gymnazium in Eger.  I had a counselor in Budapest who helped me with any
and allof my problems throughout the year, took us to see Szentendre,
Esztergom, and several other trips.  The most important part of this was
that they knew of the Rotary exchange program, and linked the four
students studying there with Soros up with the Rotary exchange students.
We were all to attendn intensive language course in Hungarian, which only
one of us spoke at a very basic level.  The school was run by a teracher
hired specially for this purpose.  She was hired by a Rotarian who ran a
school in Pest.  She was an ex-Russian teacher and had limited background
in speaking English and did not know how to teach Hungarian.  She missed
several classes and by the end of a week we knew less than we would in an
American high school foreign language course, which is almost nothing.  I
told my counselor the problems we were having, and *the very next day*
she had placed us in a professional school for foreigners studying
Hungarian and the Soros foundation had covered all of the expenses.
After my month at the school I went to Eger to study at the gymnasium and
my counselor stayed in close contact with me, helping me deal with
different issues and problems I might discover throughout the year.
Three times in that year the Soros Foundation hosted a weekend specially
for exchange students who had returned to Hungary.  They were
experiencing the problems common to chnaging cultures.  They had gotten
used to American, English and Canandian cultures while away, and now that
they had returned, they were having trouble readjusting to Hungarian
culture.  Through several workshops and excercises, these weekends were spent
discussing the problems and using the skills they had picked up as exchange
students to try to deal with them.  Then the Foundation established clubs
in each region to help organize activities to allow the student body to
experience the exchange year, although they may not be able to go on
such an experience.  Some friends and I organized a weeekend in Eger
where we brought in students form India, america, Canada, Japan, Korea
and Hungary to discuss differences in the school systems and try to break
down stereotypes.  This was funded entirely by the Soros Foundation.  We
published a yearbook, one of three in Hungatry at the time, and possibly
the best.  This was funded in part by the Soros Foundation.  The
foundation sends almost 100 students abroad every year, and looks at
applicatins for more than 1,000.  All expenses are paid, without which
the students would never have the opportuinity to take part in this
experience.  They host at least four students and are always trying to
expand this number.
        I do not know anything about what Soros has done wrong, but I
know that the lives he has touched and changed with his exchange program
are ufathomable.  Not only has he changed the attitudes of the exchange
students and their families and their friends, but also native students who
see the Hungarian exchange students working hard and getting better grades
than they are, people who meet them at social events, and relatives and
friends of friends and relatives who hear stories about the students, the
list is endless.  His Foundation changes attidtudes, breaks down
stereotypes and really promotes the "open society."  The youth are the
future of the world, and Soros is helping hone the leaders at an early
age.  It is wrong to say that his Foundation should be destroyed, or even
that it is working for a negative purpose.  I cannot say whether he is
taking part with illegal or immoral acts, but in either case, he can and
must change.  Too many opportunities would fail and too many chances
would be lost if this Foundation was destroyed.
        Bill Overbaugh
+ - Re: Soros wrongdoings---a short list (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Tibor Odor wrote:

> Several people asked me to give detailed information on Soros's
> wrongdoings in Hungary.

Not on the HUNGARY list, so your excuse for mailing this pathetic piece of
disinformation on the HUNGARY list is more than flimsy.

> And a personal note. I never applied for any kind of Soros
> stipendium.  I am not interested in ethnic origin of people
> and I do not have any religious prejudice. I do not hate rich
> people, at least for the reason that they are rich.
> So do not take these short-cuts in your brain before/after reading my
> writing.

And why should we believe these claims when some of the 'wrongdoings' are
patently ridiculous at first sight ?  Let's just look at the claim that
even to a Westerner not well versed in Hungarian affairs can tell to have
been made up:

> 6. The National Debt is his favorite issue. He wanted to buy the Hungarian
>    National Debt

The Hungarian national debt is in excess of $20 billion (net).  It is pretty
clear that Soros not only has no spare change of that magnitude kicking around,
but that his total net worth is well short of that sum.

> 8. Hundreds of other things.

Now, that is the king hit of all debates !

> I think,  if 10% of my statements were true, it would be enough reason
> to get rid of Soros. I hope the next governement oust him and his
> Foundation from the country.

Meciar of Slovakia and Milosevic of Serbia would be glad to see you in their
noble company vis-a-vis Soros.

> As I suggested in my previous mail on this issue, (Subject: Answer to
> the open letter of Csaba Zoltani) it is possible that a jury do not
> find these facts completely provable by its standards. But in politics
> I think it is enough that they are not refutable.

You mean that if you throw enough mud some will stick.

> And we also do not have the right to collect data on Soros on certain ways
> which could help as to justify our statements without doubt.

Ah, so you are only a spokesman for a number of people.  Who are this 'we' ?

George Antony
+ - Sub-Carpathia (part 2) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

written originally by Kota Gyorgy
_________________
P O P U L A T I O N
------------------------------

The ethnic composition of the region of Sub-Carpathia has changed significantly
since 1919. According to 1990 official statistics, the Hungarian minority in
Sub-Carpathia numbers approximately 155,711 and is the second largest national
community after the Ruthenians. The ethnic Hungarian community comprises 12.5%
of the total population of this region. Estimates based on church birth
registries indicate that the true number is closer to 200,000. There are
approximately another 12,000 ethnic Hungarians of Sub-Carpathian origin that
currently live in major cities of the former Soviet Union such as Lvov, Kiev,
Moscow, etc.

Approximately 48% of the Hungarian community of Sub-Carpathia live in a 20km
zone along the borders of the former Czechoslovakia, Hungary, and Rumania. This
zone comprises over 80 townships. The largest Hungarian communities live in the
bigger cities of the region. The remainder of the ethnic Hungarian population
mainly lives in the Ungvar/Uzhgorod, Munkacs/Mukachevo, and
Nagyszolos/Vinohradovo districts. Hungarians comprise a majority only in the
Beregszasz/Beregovo district. There are some more Hungarian communities in the
highland part of Sub-Carpathia in Visk/Viskovo, Aknaszlatina/Solotvino,
Tecs/Tyachiv, Rah/Rahiv, etc.

<<end>>
+ - Re: WWI or WWII? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
Janos Zsargo > writes:

> Maybe there is a correlation between the strength of a country and
>what is 'morally acceptable' for her. I think this approach to study the
>History of smaller countries (not only Hungary) is misleading, these
>countries
>sometimes cannot afford to pick their option based on morality.

It's all based on what's important to you, individually and collectively.
Voluntarily rounding up one's Jewish population for transshipment to
foreign death camps comes under the heading of an immoral act in my book.
Not every eastern European nation went along with the Nazis to the extent
that Hungary's latter wartime government did. Here again, many Hungarians
worked to slow or stop the deportation process, risking their own lives in
the process. Had Hungary worried a bit more about moral considerations in
its governmental policy at several critical points in the earlier part of
this century it might have avoided some of the tragedy that ultimately
engulfed it. Your whole approach to this question, typical of many
ultranationalists, reminds me of that old saw about the problem with the
Bourbon dynasty in France -- that they could neither forget the past nor
learn from it. Cheer up, though. Durant's bunch are even worse in that
regard.
Sam Stowe
+ - Re: Soros wrongdoings---a short list (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

First LaRouche, then Gingrich and now this.

We do need a deodorizer.

Gabor D. Farkas
+ - Labor Unions (Formerly Health insurance) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 05:09 PM 3/4/96 -0500, Joe Szalai  wrote:

>>Here is where we disagree. If I don't like my bank, I can switch to another
>>one.
>
>But it will still be a bank.  All I was trying to do was to answer your
>question about who gets better pay and benefits - the employer or the
>employee.  You can change your bank as often as you like but the president
>will still make more money than you or I.

And again, the bank president is not my employee because I can switch to any
bank I wish (or I may even keep my  money in the mattress, in which case no
bank president gets money from me. The public service employee is my
employee because I must pay his/her salary (taxes) and I cannot switch to
any other provider of those services (schools, police, sanitation).


>>If I don't like the services I get from the government, if I am lucky I
>>can elect another government that may change the laws that protect those
>>who provide the lousy service. Chances are this will not happen because the
>>providers of the lousy service (and their labor unions) have such well
>>organized lobbies.
>
>Have you ever noticed that the wealthiest nations in the world have strong
>and independent labour unions?  If you don't like the strength of labour
>unions perhaps you might consider Haiti as a place to live.  They don't have
>unions there and I'm sure the service is exceptional.

My problem is not with the strength of the labor unions but with the ways
that strength is being used. The most disgusting example is when the members
of the teachers' union in our school district refused to give college
recommendations to students in the senior class, while it looked that their
contract negotiations were not moving towards their desired goals.


>Since you are opposed to the public sector are you in favour of user fees?
>Do you think only those parents with school aged children should pay for
>their education?

No. However, I do think that using only the real estate valuation as the
basis for the school tax is wrong (this is how it is done in New York State).

Gabor D. Farkas
+ - Re: Health insurance (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 01:34 PM 3/4/96 +0100, Eva Durant wrote:

>>
>> The system in Hungary implied that the patient was supposed (and still is)
>> to slip an envelope with money into the doctor's pocket after being treated
>> (not unlike a barbershop). The poor patient never knows if it is enough, the
>> poor doctor has to accept it because of the low salary. You think this
>> "works better"?
>>
>
>In the 80s I coped with the system without such payments.
>The local doctor was part of the village establishment,
>and as I had no idea about the "procedure" and was skint,
>I've never have given any money to anyone, and I, and my
>family was treated very well.  In the Kaposvar hospital,
>the young doctor who I asked desparate, how and howmuch
>to pay (in an emergency) told me that she would not take
>money, but the head of department likes cognac.
>I think doctors do their best, and if they are offered
>something afterwards, they take it, as their salary is so
>pitifully low. But seems to me, that most money goes to
>established consultants, who are rich anyway.

I don't understand what the established consultants have to do with this.

>> >It would be even cheaper, if pharmaceuticals
>> >were in the public domain...
>>
>> Just check, how many of the past few decades' revolutionary (sorry for this
>> word) drugs were invented in the state-owned pharnaceutical companies of
>> Eastern Europe and Soviet Union? Sick people (unless they belonged to the
>> elite) in need of an advanced drug just died. But it was cheaper.

>
>I have no idea

That is a problem.

>, all I know, that there were damn good
>and ridiculously cheap medicine in the eighties.

And Hungary got into a multibillion dollar debt, among other things because
of this.

>The choice in contraceptives and antibiotics were
>greater, that I'd found here, and were affordable
>for everybody.  Ask any pensioners in Hungary, if
>their medication has improved since...  ask if
>sick people  and hospitals can efford those
>all foreign-owned medicines now.

They could not afford them then, they cannot afford them now. What solution
do you suggest? Please, no generalities but concrete, realistic solutions,
for Hungary.

Gabor D. Farkas
+ - Soros wrongdoings---a short list (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Netters,

Several people asked me to give detailed information on Soros's
wrongdoings in Hungary. Now  I do not have the possibility to give
this information because presently I am in Vienna and I do not have
my notes with me. But before sending the detailed information
I give a short list.

And a personal note. I never applied for any kind of Soros
stipendium.  I am not interested in ethnic origin of people
and I do not have any religious prejudice. I do not hate rich
people, at least for the reason that they are rich.
So do not take these short-cuts in your brain before/after reading my
writing.

1. Soros  very negative role under the Blocad of Taxi Drivers.
   His anti-hungarian views were disclosed in the Hungarian TV
   in an interview with him. He said very controversial things
   about hungarianness and the National Anathem which hurt the
   vast majority of the Nation on either side of the Blocad.
   It is very disturbing that the film mada about this interview
   is closed for reusage. Somebody (I forgot his name, and this is
   an example, why I need those notes so badly) wanted to use
   some part of the interview, but he did not have access to
   the original one.

   It would be interesting to distribute---at least the text---
   of  this interview on the Internet, is not it?

   He agreed with and maybe supported the unconstitutional Blocad.
   The first part of the statement is a fact, the second part seems to be
   a well founded guess.

2. He supports journals and newspapers, Magyar Narancs, Beszelo and other
   garbages which otherwise cannot survive on the market.
   This is extremely harmful in Hungary because on the media
   market the conservative side historically underdeveloped.
   His supportation strategy, among other things, resulted the
   present situation, that the press and media cannot regarded as
   free. (I do not beleive that there exists "half freedom".)

2'. He supports HIX. :-)

3. He supports people and views which are extremely harmful for the
   society. For example he strongly supports the idea of free distribution
   of hard drugs (not only marijuana, but LSDand maybe cocain).
   He supports abortion too.

4. He is completely against the Hungarian nation. He hates everything
   which is made or done by ethnic hungarians. (Remember for the Anathem
   issue.)He supports the enemies
   of the nation. (He gave money to Corneliu Vadim Tudor and his daughter,
   and as far as I know he gave money to Gheorghiu Funar too.)
   He supports fomer members of the AVH. His closest
   advisors are communists, for example Miklos Vasarhelyi.
   (Even if they had some role in 1956.
   Gyula Horn also fought on the side of the revolution for 3 days.
   But he changed his mind in time. Those people simply were not so
   clever.)
   He supports the members of the nomenklature, while he speaks about the
   "open society".
   Naturally, he gives money for others too, but take into account the
   proportions please!
   (I am aware that this statement is difficult to prove, because
   the list of people
   who is or was supported by the Soros Foundation as far as I know
   is not open for everyone. And I do not have the right to spy on
   the Soros Foundation. Maybe the Czechs, the Serbs and other nations
   did that, and they found the policy of Soros very harmful. And they
   got rid of him.)

   We should protest for the opening of these files! Especially because
   he is working ---at least in words--- for the "open society".
   He should it openly, not as the Secret Police!
   After the opening of these files we could decide wether my opinion ---and
   the opinion of other other critics of Soros--- is
   well founded or not. To this point we have to judge on those information
   which were disclosed by the press and the media and we could collect under
   our personal experience, as I did.)

5. It is a lie that Soros gave all the money, which is distributed
   through his Foundation.
   The Hungarian state gave half of the money which was given to
   people. It was not mentioned at all. The Hungarian state ---mistakenly---
   also gave buildings for free for the Central European University.
   The press try to sell it as if it were a private money, and
   they form the opinion on this basis that Soros can do with these things
   whatever he wants because it is his money.

   This is not the first and the last case to say about public money
   that it is private money. Similar things happend a week ago in
   connection with a foundation of a "private" school in Buda.

   Because he gave money for his Foundation, he did not have to pay certain
   taxes. And he imitated that he gave money several times. For example, if you
   wanted to take TOEFL exam in Hungary in 1994, you could pay for it
   only through
   the Soros Foundation. You could get checks in the Szabo Ervin library,
   Budapest, you had to fill in, and you could pay in forint.
   The check stated that you payed this money by the help of
   Soros Foundation. I showed this check to several people who speaks
    both English and Hungarian very well. All of them thought that
   this text indicates that the Soros Foundation payed ALL the money,
   not only the changing of the money on market value.
   Some people who worked in the Ministry of Education under the
   previous gorvernement said that not only these checks were used
   to get back taxes unlawfully.

   Because several people had to take TOEFL in  Hungary, I hope
   they can justify my statements. This is a very small amount of money.
   This is a reason why I found this story very interesting.

   This is the "philantropist" Soros.

6. The National Debt is his favorite issue. He wanted to buy the Hungarian
   National Debt and using his influence he wanted to introduce an "open"
   political
   system. The "extremist" and "racist" Jozsef Antall disclosed these facts.
   Now he wants something, which seems to be even worst than his original
   ideas.

7. He tried to undermine the Hungarian bank system trying to occupy
   OTP (the largest and most important bank in Hungary) by a plot.
   (OTP is under moderate, not anti-hungarian communist rule. It is very
   painful for the liberal anti-hungarian extremists who are the best
   friends of Soros.)

8. Hundreds of other things.

I think,  if 10% of my statements were true, it would be enough reason
to get rid of Soros. I hope the next governement oust him and his
Foundation from the country.
I find it very sad and almost ridiculous that a person can buy a significant
part of the entelectuals of a nation. It is due to the present economical
and political situation. The communism weekened the nation so much that
it lost all of its ability to resist these type of actions.

But I hope our eyes will be opened and we have the ability to take the
necessary action.

I do not say that everybody is bad who accepted or applied for Soros
Stipendium. Media and the press misleaded the people. People, like
Victor Orban (president of the FIDESY-MPP), who spent a lot of time in
the US learning the extreme liberalism (brrrrrr....) by the help of Soros
Foundation, can change their opinion if they are openminded, faithful
to the Hungarian nation and intellectually honest.

I do not suggest to any Hungarian to have connection with him or his
Foundations.

As I suggested in my previous mail on this issue, (Subject: Answer to
the open letter of Csaba Zoltani) it is possible that a jury do not
find these facts completely provable by its standards. But in politics
I think it is enough that they are not refutable. We cannot prove
everything without doubt, because using a complicated strategy one can
generate so complicated cases which is not possible to uncover in 100 years
while we do not have 100 days to take the anaviodable actions.
And we also do not have the right to collect data on Soros on certain ways
which could help as to justify our statements without doubt.

In my opinion well founded unrefutable serious doubt and some really proved
statements which support these doubts  should be enough in politics
to take the necessary steps.
In this issue this is the case. To decide what is the intention of
Soros with the National Debt for example, only one person can say
sure things. Soros Himself. This comes from the epistemological situation.
But humans have the ability to guess the real intentions of the others.
They are wrong several times, sometimes very wrong, but the existence of
this ability is one of the reason why we can survive. So for me the
suggestion in non-scientific or
judical issues that not to take these guesses, and to restrict orselves
only for pure facts seems to be extremely ridiculous. Especially because
those "proved facts" usually not more than widespread interpretation
of certain feelings and social patterns.

If one read through this short list he or she can see that it is not short
at all. This is the other reason why I could not give detailed information
at least in this very day.

But I hope, I can enclose soon the results of investigations against Soros
which is continued by the US Finance Ministry. :-)

But the BCCI story showed that to uncover the crimes of a bank or
other big financial institution takes about 10 years. So Soros
has 6 years in the US. (But I hope, he has only 6 months in Hungary.)

And this happens only if there is no serious lobby
in the state who wants to wash clean the participants. The story of Maxwell
brothers and O.J. Simpson showed that it is not possible to punish
criminals if a serious lobby has  certain political and/or financial
interest in it.


Best regards,

Tibor Odor

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