At 08:35 AM 6/17/97 +0100, Eva Durant, responding to Aniko Dunford, wrote:

<snip>
>Just what you are basing this statement? It is
>totally false. There is a fairly narrow layer
>of "entrepeneurs" who are doing better, but
>guess what, these are the people who were
>not doing that bad before. The average living standards
>are down, especially since the Bokros-csomag,
>and no politician denies this in Hungary.
>Get your facts right before you patronising me, please.

Don't count on it, Eva.  I'm beginning to believe that Aniko gets all her
data from people around her, and from her own experience.  And that's a
good start.  Unfortunately, I think she stops there, too.  I doubt very
much that she goes to a library to look up facts or figures on various
issues.  It's propably why she hasn't mentioned that 10 or 15 per cent of
Canadian children live in poverty.  She just doesn't see it, therefor it
can't be true, and change is not necessary.

Joe Szalai

At 10:52 PM 6/16/97 GMT, Agnes Heringer wrote:

<snip>
>Well, well - I was away on the weekend and didn't read the list.  Also, for
>quite a few days before, the list seemed to be almost dead.  This is quite
>an interesting discussion, and I agree with Peter, as usual.  Also, I am
>corresponding with a few of my old friends, who think they had it better
>under the Kadar "gulyascommunism", and keep asking, why they needed a
>change?  Still, I am really surprised about the young lady Joe is writeing
>about - no person with any brain in their head would vote communist - after
>all, the system failed miserably after 70 years.

My acquaintance has a brain in her head.  She's a gifted linguist.  She
speaks English, Hungarain, German, Spanish, and now, some French.  This
past year, while working on her MA, she taught German to undergrad classes
at Waterloo.  Today, she's working 10 hours a week as a server (waitress -
for those of you who still use sexist language) in a restaurant in downtown
Kitchener.

I've never voted for the Communist Party of Canada (Marxist-Leninist), and
have no intention of ever doing so.  However, if I was trapped in this new
economy (downsizing, rightsizing, rationalizing, and other strategies
motivated by greed) the way she is, I too may vent my anger by voting
CPC(M-L).

I think that when she was an undergrad at ELTE she didn't have to take
part-time jobs and could devote all her time to her studies.  Well, in good
old capitalist Canada, she's had to juggle a couple of part-time jobs while
studying, and I know she resents it.

When I was an undergrad at Waterloo I didn't have much money either but I
didn't have to take a part-time job during school.  I only had to find
summer work and that was usually no problem.  If I had to work part-time
while studying I would have hated it because it would have interfered with
my studies, and the advantage, as usual, would have gone to the kids of the
well-to-do who didn't even have to worry about getting a summer job.

Joe Szalai

On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Amos J. Danube wrote:

> Eva Durant wrote:
> > I can't and don't want to "do so" on my own.
>
>    You mean, you don't have any solution! Surprise!

You're a confused man, Amos.  You want Eva Durant to have all the answers,
to have a clear plan to follow.  What she's been saying all along is that
tha 'answers' and the 'plans' have to be arrived at democratically.  They
don't yet exist.  That means that you, along with everyone else, will have
to deceide on the answers you want and the plan you want to follow.  And
that's no easy task.

If you want a plan to be just handed to you so you can follow it, as you
always seem to be demanding, then what you're really interested in is
dictatorships.  They have all the answers and plans you'll ever want to
see.  Or, perhaps, you're just too smitten by the status quo.

Joe Szalai

Aniko wrote about the conspicuous consumption she saw in Budapest. I
wonder if Aniko could tell us how many soup kitchens there are in
Budapest.

Joe Szalai

>I wander how many of us were so clean of communist indoctrination upon
>leaving Hungary. Of course it depends how many years one lived under Rakosi
>and/or Kadar, age, education, location, family background etc. Most
>immigrants are originally quite critical of their receiving country. Give
>the young lady of Ontario a few years, time to learn and to mature.
>
>Peter I. Hidas


Well, well - I was away on the weekend and didn't read the list.  Also, for
quite a few days before, the list seemed to be almost dead.  This is quite
an interesting discussion, and I agree with Peter, as usual.  Also, I am
corresponding with a few of my old friends, who think they had it better
under the Kadar "gulyascommunism", and keep asking, why they needed a
change?  Still, I am really surprised about the young lady Joe is writeing
about - no person with any brain in their head would vote communist - after
all, the system failed miserably after 70 years.

Agnes

>Montreal

In article >, Aniko
Dunford > writes:

>>        I can only second this one. Place of destination could be the
Yukon
>>Territory. Maybe we can do something about this by getting in touch with
the
>>president of the Munkaspart! ESB
>>
>Oh Plleeeaaasseeee ... Not the Yukon ha?  That be too close to comfort
 ...
>to say the very least? C'on Eva, you can do better?
>
>Aniko

This will not be an easy nut to crack. There are certain places where our
little dyed-in-the-wool red buddies will still feel at home, such as
Berkeley, Calif., or Chapel Hill, N.C. The former, however, would probably
be much too close to Gabor Fencsik for his comfort and the latter would be
much too close to me for comfort. Don't the Albanians have a concrete
bunker somewhere that they're not using at the moment? I'm sure they'd all
fit in there. You could think of it as a state preserve for the
politically insane.
Sam Stowe

P.S. -- I don't know about communists, but Hungary the List is sure
exporting a lot of repeat messages these days. I think I've gotten
everything on this particular thread three or four times now.

"We judge ourselves by our
best intentions; we are judged
by our last, worst act."
-- Michael Josephson

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
   URGENT!!

Background:
  The simultaneous integration of Romania and Hungary into NATO is in
the best interest of our Transylvanian Hungarian brethren, of the
region, and of our peoples and countries. This is also recognized by
the RMDSZ and by Hungarian politicians of the government as well as of
the opposition.
  Unfortunately, Romania is rarely mentioned when Western politicians
talk about NATO expansion. In a few weeks the NATO members will
adjudicate upon Romania's integration into NATO in the first wave. Now
we have to act URGENTLY.

What to do:
  Please support Romania's integration into the NATO by sending
Secretary of State Albright, Vice President Al Gore and President
Clinton the attached (or similar) letters.
  Note these politicians will only take notice if she receives
thousands of letters. Therefore please send at least one letter every
day and ask your friends who do not have contact with HL to do the
same.

e-mail address of Albright:


e-mail address of Gore:


e-mail address of Clinton:



*************************************************************

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter to Albright:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

The Honorable Madeleine Albright
United States Secretary of State
U.S. Department of State
2201 C Street, NW
Washington, DC  20520
E-Mail: )

Dear Madame Secretary:

As a member of the Hungarian Lobby I am deeply interested in the
future of East-Central Europe, and recognize the need for simultaneous
integration of the countries of the region into NATO. This would
stabilize the whole region and assure the orderly transition toward
democracy and market economy, without the turmoil seen in the former
Yugoslavia.

Romania, a country of 23 milion people, with affinity toward western
culture, at the same time represents the best potential base of
stability in the Balkans.

Romania's ongoing political democratization and reorganization of all
central and local governmental institutions, the inclusion of the
large Hungarian minority in the government, and the expected
subsequent satisfaction of legitimate minority claims are -- and may
become -- positive examples for the countries of the region.

A look at the map of Europe shows Romania to be the gateway to the
East. Only through this gateway will it be possible to access the
heart of Europe, and the key that will allow this gateway to stay open
-- and to defend it effectively at the same time -- is NATO membership
for Romania.

With an important economic potential due to a large and fertile
agricultural area, her metallurgical and defense industries ready to
produce for her allies, possessing the biggest maritime port in
Eastern Europe, with a multiethnic population and large urban
comunities, Romania is just as much an important future partner and
ally of the European Community and of NATO as are Poland, the Czech
Republic, and Hungary.

For all the above considerations, I ask you, Madame Secretary, to
support the inclusion of Romania, along with Hungary, the Czech
Republic and Poland, among the first group of countries to be
integrated into NATO.

Respectfully,

<name, title, address>

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter to Al Gore:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

The Honorable Al Gore
Vice President of the United States
The White House
Washington, D.C. 20001
(e-mail: )

Dear Mr. Vice President:

As a member of the Hungarian Lobby I am deeply interested in the
future of East-Central Europe, and recognize the need for simultaneous
integration of the countries of the region into NATO. This would
stabilize the whole region and assure the orderly transition toward
democracy and market economy, without the turmoil seen in the former
Yugoslavia.

Romania, a country of 23 milion people, with affinity toward western
culture, at the same time represents the best potential base of
stability in the Balkans.

Romania's ongoing political democratization and reorganization of all
central and local governmental institutions, the inclusion of the
large Hungarian minority in the government, and the expected
subsequent satisfaction of legitimate minority claims are -- and may
become -- positive examples for the countries of the region.

A look at the map of Europe shows Romania to be the gateway to the
East. Only through this gateway will it be possible to access the
heart of Europe, and the key that will allow this gateway to stay open
-- and to defend it effectively at the same time -- is NATO membership
for Romania.

With an important economic potential due to a large and fertile
agricultural area, her metallurgical and defense industries ready to
produce for her allies, possessing the biggest maritime port in
Eastern Europe, with a multiethnic population and large urban
comunities, Romania is just as much an important future partner and
ally of the European Community and of NATO as are Poland, the Czech
Republic, and Hungary.

For all the above considerations, I ask you, Mr. Vice President, to
support the inclusion of Romania, along with Hungary, the Czech
Republic and Poland, among the first group of countries to be
integrated into NATO.

Respectfully,

<name, title, address>

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter to Clinton:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

The Honorable Bill Clinton
President of the United States
The White House
Washington, D.C. 20001
(e-mail: )

Dear Mr. President:

As a member of the Hungarian Lobby I am deeply interested in the
future of East-Central Europe, and recognize the need for simultaneous
integration of the countries of the region into NATO. This would
stabilize the whole region and assure the orderly transition toward
democracy and market economy, without the turmoil seen in the former
Yugoslavia.

Romania, a country of 23 milion people, with affinity toward western
culture, at the same time represents the best potential base of
stability in the Balkans.

Romania's ongoing political democratization and reorganization of all
central and local governmental institutions, the inclusion of the
large Hungarian minority in the government, and the expected
subsequent satisfaction of legitimate minority claims are -- and may
become -- positive examples for the countries of the region.

A look at the map of Europe shows Romania to be the gateway to the
East. Only through this gateway will it be possible to access the
heart of Europe, and the key that will allow this gateway to stay open
-- and to defend it effectively at the same time -- is NATO membership
for Romania.

With an important economic potential due to a large and fertile
agricultural area, her metallurgical and defense industries ready to
produce for her allies, possessing the biggest maritime port in
Eastern Europe, with a multiethnic population and large urban
comunities, Romania is just as much an important future partner and
ally of the European Community and of NATO as are Poland, the Czech
Republic, and Hungary.

For all the above considerations, I ask you, Mr. President, to
support the inclusion of Romania, along with Hungary, the Czech
Republic and Poland, among the first group of countries to be
integrated into NATO.

Respectfully,

<name, title, address>

Dear Fellow-listmembers,

I'm forwarding this request from another list in the hopes that maybe
somebody among us can help this person with some at least of the
questions he asks.

Please reply directly to the e-mail address in the header, as he does
not (as far as I know) "belong" to us...

Sincerely,

Hugh Agnew

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 11:39:57 -0400
From: Matthew Lungerhausen >

Dear fellow Habsburg Scholars:

My name is Matthew Lungerhausen.  I am a graduate student in History at
Binghamton University.  I am interested in the urban history of Budapest
and the architecture of Odon Lechner.  I am going to the Debrecen Summer
Language School in July.  While in Hungary I hope to visit the libraries
and archives in Budapest and other towns to get an idea of what kind of
materials are available on architecture and urban planning.  I have
several research questions:

What is the best guide to the archives and libraries in Hungary?  I have
only found one in English, _Guide to the Archives of Hungary_ (1976)
published by the Archival Board of the Ministry of Culture.  Has this
guide been updated recently? Are there other guides in German or Hungarian
which would be more useful?

Thank you very much for your time and help.

Sincerely Yours,
Matthew Lungerhausen

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Matthew Lungerhausen
box 6000
History Department
Binghamton University
Binghamton NY 13902
e-mail: 


Ed. note: The best single volume guide to Hungarian archives is
_Magyarorszag leveltarai_ (Budapest: [Muszaki Konyvkiado], 1983), 391 pp.
Among the archives it describes is the Pest City Archives.  A shorter
guide appeared in 1996 in Hungarian and German, whose German title is _Die
Archive in Ungarn_.  It has more recent addresses and phone numbers, but
Hungarian phone numbers are changing pretty rapidly these days.  The
University Library in Debrecen surely has these books and also most of the
more specialized guides and inventories that have appeared since 1945.
For libraries, a good starting point is the home page of the National
Szechenyi Library at <http://www.oszk.hu/>;  --JPN

At 09:09 PM 16/06/97 GMT, you wrote:
>No, just realists. That is what I am.
[...]
If that be the case, why do find it difficult to accept Amos' recently
shared "realities"?

>I would feel much happier, if
>I'd had  valid reasons to believe, that living standards in Hungary
>would rise
[...]
The living standards in Hungary have risen considerably within the last 10
years.  Indications are, that despite of what you perceive as being only
our 'western' opionions, standards, will continue to rise so, lest they
stabilize at one point or another ...

,>despite - even as globally the trend is not that.
>Believe me Eva, I would be a happier person, if as you, I could put
>blind faith in capitalism.
[...]
Personally, I have yet to interpret Eva's words to depict "blind faith in
capitalism" ... so"tt ...

>It is not a rewarding role to rock the
>boat of naive comfortable people, oblivious of the pitfalls.
>However, I'd feel guilty if I said nothing.
[...]
How extremely insightful of you.  And how extremely confusing also.  Since
in my opinon, those, who have been known to rock the boat with a concrete
plan of action, have, at least drawn considerable attention to their
cause.... take a look at the seperatist movement withing Quebec for
instance ...

Best, Aniko

At 08:35 AM 6/17/97 +0100, you wrote:
>> The living standards in Hungary have risen considerably within the last 10
>> years.  Indications are, that despite of what you perceive as being only
>> our 'western' opionions, standards, will continue to rise so, lest they
>> stabilize at one point or another ...
>
>Just what you are basing this statement? It is
>totally false.

Despite what your acquired statistics are dictating ...

a) ALL stores in Hungary (from the little corner to the recently introduced
"SuperStore" are filled with high qualify foods and products from all over
the world now, as opposed to prior when the shelves were practically empty
even within the teeny cubicles they used to call stores.  And, people must
be buying ... since supply has not quite caught up to demand in some
instances.  While the costs have risen considerably the carts are packed to
their brims at newly introducted "SuperStores" and line ups at computerized
check-outs are longer than are here in Canada.
b) Almost every second car in Bpest is a Mercedes a BMW, with American cars
catching on real strong.  I have seen more Porsches in Bpest than anywhere else
.
c) Women/Men are exceptionally well dressed in comparison to the past
d) People are vacationing ... travel agents are busy booking for
"Hungarians". Outbound flights to vacationing spots are practically
impossible to get, unless you book them well in advance
e) Private use of Internet is on the rise ... people 'must' be buying
computers also in order to accomodate such service; along with telephones,
especially cellular
f)  Train service once highly utilized is reduced tremendously, and the
number of vehicles have increased (western ones, not the Trabants) equally
tremendously
g) Accounting firms, advertising agencies and legal services are kept
thriving ....
h) As many restaurants as there are downtown Bpest, one must wait an hour to
be seated for a meal ....  Opera and concerts are practically always sold
out ... getting into a movie theatre is practically impossible ...Teenagers
are wearing clothes that would put our "western kids to shame" ... And on
and on and on ...  but of course, these are all "totally false" statements
 .... ones, which just last night "talalkam ki" (imagined) cause I was bored"
with the sole intent to patronise you.  And ... of course statistics state
otherwise.  You are incorrigible Eva, really.

Best, Aniko

At 08:40 AM 6/17/97 +0100, you wrote:
>> Reaching for ideas is one thing .... making them happen becomes *the task*.
>>  The task you see, in my opinion would require that you do so, with an well
>> thought out plan of action.  I ask again ... what's yours?
>>
>> Best, Aniko

Eva Durant replies:>
>I can't and don't want to "do so" on my own.
>My foremost task is to make people aware of
>the problems,
[...]
Enough said.  This, to me is where you let yourself down the most.  To enact
changes requires leadership.  Leadership requires a plan of action and blind
dedication towards implementing.  It also requires display of respect for
other humans. Your above shared words lack all of this.   As such, your
ideas/ideals become interpreted as  "whining".

Best, Aniko
>

Eva Durant wrote:
>
> > Reaching for ideas is one thing .... making them happen becomes *the task*.
> >  The task you see, in my opinion would require that you do so, with an well
> > thought out plan of action.  I ask again ... what's yours?
> >
> > Best, Aniko

   I absolutely agree with Aniko. If you are as concerned as you say you
are,
do something constructive.

> I can't and don't want to "do so" on my own.

   You mean, you don't have any solution! Surprise!

> My foremost task is to make people aware of
> the problems, to make them think, to form an
> opinion, to compare that with mine.

   This I understand to be propaganda.

> The majority of people have to come to
> a conscious decision about the task,
> if we want a genuinly democratic change for once.

   As long as they follow your belief.

> The historical experience is solid: shortcuts
> such as totalitarianism or terrorism don't work.

   Wow! Now we have the solution. Why didn't we think of this before?
                                                                   Amos

Eva Durant wrote:
>
> >
> >         Bet that it will rise in the next few years.
> >
>
> Quantify the period and put your money where
> your mouth is...

   And just what does this supposed to mean? When you don't have an
answer,
you start to use slogans. But there is nothing new about that.

> >         It's not blind faith. It rests on proven record. Compare the living
> > standards of ordinary human beings one hundred years ago and now.

> Which ordinary human beings you take into account?
> There are more human being living in desparate
> condition now, than any time in history.
> Ignore them at your peril.

   And just how do you know that? Because the 'capitalist-corporatist'
media
told you so? According to you, the media is telling the truth when it
agrees
with you. Some democracy!

> >         In don't think that I am naive, or oblivious. I am not even all tha
t
> > comfortable. Like everybody else I have to worry about tomorrow. ESB
> >
> >         ESB

> sorry, Eva, but your statements above suggests just that.
> I haven't seen any sign of you not being smug with
> a capitalist future.

   And you haven't seen any signs that she is. Have you now?
                                                             Amos

E.Durant wrote:

>You must have missed it, but I few times I mentioned, that
>I have valid reasons to think, that a democratic system
>of socialism would work much BETTER than the
>present and specially better than a future capitalism.

I may have missed those reasons, but it seems I am not the
only one. Except Joe, nobody sees or understands the validity
of your reasons. Actually I don't even know what reasons are
you talking about. If you refer to those you told me about
the transition period from capitalism to communism (you may
remember our debate) than we have a misunderstanding here, those are
fairy tales to me not reasons.

>You are not offering any guarantee, that the present trend towards
>polarisation and anarchy won't continue.

You was telling that the present trend is toward the globalisation and
cooperation and not polarisation and anarchy. That was one of your
argument that the 'New world' is coming.

J.Zs

> The living standards in Hungary have risen considerably within the last 10
> years.  Indications are, that despite of what you perceive as being only
> our 'western' opionions, standards, will continue to rise so, lest they
> stabilize at one point or another ...
>

Just what you are basing this statement? It is
totally false. There is a fairly narrow layer
of "entrepeneurs" who are doing better, but
guess what, these are the people who were
not doing that bad before. The average living standards
are down, especially since the Bokros-csomag,
and no politician denies this in Hungary.
Get your facts right before you patronising me, please.

> Reaching for ideas is one thing .... making them happen becomes *the task*.
>  The task you see, in my opinion would require that you do so, with an well
> thought out plan of action.  I ask again ... what's yours?
>
> Best, Aniko

I can't and don't want to "do so" on my own.
My foremost task is to make people aware of
the problems, to make them think, to form an
opinion, to compare that with mine.
The majority of people have to come to
a conscious decision about the task,
if we want a genuinly democratic change for once.
The historical experience is solid: shortcuts
such as totalitarianism or terrorism don't work.

>
>         Bet that it will rise in the next few years.
>

Quantify the period and put your money where
your mouth is...


>
>         It's not blind faith. It rests on proven record. Compare the living
> standards of ordinary human beings one hundred years ago and now.
>

Which ordinary human beings you take into account?
There are more human being living in desparate
condition now, than any time in history.
Ignore them at your peril.



>
>         In don't think that I am naive, or oblivious. I am not even all that
> comfortable. Like everybody else I have to worry about tomorrow. ESB
>
>         ESB
>
>

sorry, Eva, but your statements above suggests just that.
I haven't seen any sign of you not being smug with
a capitalist future.

You must have missed it, but I few times I mentioned, that
I have valid reasons to think, that a democratic system
of socialism would work much BETTER than the
present and specially better than a future capitalism.
You are not offering any guarantee, that the present trend towards
polarisation and anarchy won't continue.
Your belief in this system - with its evident shortcomings-
seems more irrational to me, than anything I can come up with...





>
> Eva, here is where your approach fails. Your ideas about the 'new
> world' are mere beliefs. You have no proofs only fairy tales. Actually
> nobody has a clear idea how your 'new world' can be realized.
> It is a bad sign if you have nothing else than "ka'roga's", whining
> about the unequality, unfairness of the present world.
>
> J.Zs
>

If  I'd act as you say, you'd call me an authoritarian - with
good reason. Exacly where was I disrespectful?
Please point it out, I copied it all.


>
> Eva Durant replies:>
> >I can't and don't want to "do so" on my own.
> >My foremost task is to make people aware of
> >the problems,
> [...]
> Enough said.  This, to me is where you let yourself down the most.  To enact
> changes requires leadership.  Leadership requires a plan of action and blind
> dedication towards implementing.  It also requires display of respect for
> other humans. Your above shared words lack all of this.   As such, your
> ideas/ideals become interpreted as  "whining".
>
> Best, Aniko
> >
>

Aniko, sometimes try to stray off the tourist tracks.
(Be careful, though.)
Your argument is somewhat superficial.

> a) ALL stores in Hungary (from the little corner to the recently introduced
> "SuperStore" are filled with high qualify foods and products from all over
> the world now, as opposed to prior when the shelves were practically empty
> even within the teeny cubicles they used to call stores.
-description of booming down-town cut-
> Best, Aniko
>

> change?  Still, I am really surprised about the young lady Joe is writeing
> about - no person with any brain in their head would vote communist - after
> all, the system failed miserably after 70 years.
>
> Agnes
>
> >Montreal
>

If you'll look carefully, you'll find, that people who call
themselves communists want various things; e.g. the eurocommunists
are socialdemocrats,  the brits have three different types now etc.
There are probably sects that want some sort of stalinism - but I
wager, that the majority would not want to repeat a mistake,
and most of these people envisage a democratic version of socialism.
I am a type of communist because I want democratic
socialism, however at the moment I tend towards the solution that
favour independent grassroot organisations to guarantee  directly
exercised democracy.  There is numerous such  "seedlings",e.g.
as the various types of cooperatives that managed to keep their
democratic structure, LETS schemes, even the internet...
It definitely has very narrow common ground with the ex-socialism.
Present day capitalism has more familiarity with that, if you look at
the mass-propaganda and other features of a  severly
deformed  democracy.