>Temakor: ( 177 sor )
>Idopont: Wed May 15 17:37:07 EDT 1996 HUNGARY #669
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I apologize to the readers of HUNGARY for provoking another long diatribe
from Eva Balogh.  Her vehemence is indeed frightening.  But, as so often
before, she could not substantiate her  allegations, to which I had objected.
 While she originally had complained about recent happenings on FORUM, she
now produced a post nearly two years old, whose author quotes from several
sources, (including the Jewish Encyclopedia) references to  ancient customs
having to do with various forms of bloodletting, including Jews being charged
with murder and the draining of their blood.  These accounts seem bizarre
enough, but nowhere in the quoted text did I see any reference to Jews
actually _drinking_ their alleged victims  blood.  That  may be Eva Balogh s
imagination working overtime, as when she says:

 Yet, one of this non-anti-semites claimed that in the middle ages and
later, Jews actually killed Christians and drank their blood!
                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I find Eva Balogh s debating style very disturbing.  When she can t think of
a fitting rebuttal, she goes after her opponent with the vehemence of her
nemesis, Andras Szucs, with whom she has more in common than she thinks.
 Both will repeat the same tired accusation ad infinitum, even when their
tirades are accompanied by the audible yawns of everyone else.  And when even
that doesn t work, she will go for the jugular declaring that because the
other person does not speak a particular language (Hungarian in Cecilia s
case, English in Nemenyi s) as well as she does, that other person must be
ignorant, unworthy of serious discourse.  And now she takes advantage of many
HUNGARY readers  lack of fuency in Hungarian to spread her gospel of how
terrible the people on FORUM are.  (Actually, the discussion there is at
about the same level as is here, since many of the participants are the
same.)

Please, Eva, try to calm down.  In spite of your accusation, I never said you
were a  pathological liar .  Some one else did, and I indicated my
disagreement at the time   right here on HUNGARY.  Now, that does not mean I
stated that you always told the truth, either.  I will let others be the
judge.

As I said before, I acknowledge and enjoy Eva s writing on subjects she knows
something about.  There are a number of topics on which she can write with
authority.  It is only when she lets herself be carried away by her
prejudices and temperament or  lowers herself to the ideological
gutter-fights that she loses the esteem of others whose tastes run to the
more rational type of intellectual discourse.

Ferenc

In article <v01510100adc3e2634ad6@[204.134.209.51]>, CHARLES J CSIPKAY
> writes:

>The gays despise the straights, the straights
>despise the gays, and never the twain will meet.

I beg, as a straight man with gay friends, neighbors, co-workers and
family members, to differ. The twain do meet every day in every aspect of
life and often get along just fine when they do.
Sam Stowe

Since there is some debate about the contents of this letter, I decided to
help those who do not speak Hungarian and translate it. Since I don't have a
lot of time for this, I'll make it a rough translation, I hope if Mr. Nemeny
disagrees with it, he'll correct me (also, sorry for spelling errors)

> ============================================================

"Dear Gyuri (Rubin):

I would like to talk about two subjects you brought up:

>3.  Later the Jews were made universally responsible for Christ's murder. I
believe it can be imagined what kind of reaction resulted from this in the
very religious but ignorant masses.

So it seems that you don't consider collective guilt to be good politics.
...Reading the rest of your letter I basically liked it but I got stuck on
the following part:

>Thank you for your interesting addition to the topic. However, I doubt that
every persecution of  Jews sould be explained by some sort of aspiration for
power by the Jews, as your writing suggests it.

I cannot state that every persecution, but if we look at the big average,
than maybe, and later you write:

>Certainly there were cases like this but in most cases totally innocent
people suffered due to totally absurd accusations (blood libel, Christ's
murder, etc.)

This statement is worth analysis. For the understanding of the accusation of
blood libel/murder one has to look at the fact, whether a culture posseses
the devotion to such dogmas. Let's look at the facts of the Jewish Purim
holiday, which is based on celebrating the fulfillment of the  revenge of
the wife of the persian king Xerxes,  Esther and her immigrant people
againts Haman, the regal minister. The revenge was total, it took even
Hamans 10 children's life. The ceremony of such a revenge, that does not
even save the life of the innocent,  includes the making of a cookie that
has the shape of a human ear and symbolizes a feast of consuming Haman's
body.This is called Haman's ear and with not little cinicism and irony in
Europe it was called monk-ear. To connect the reasoning to blood, it's worth
mentioning that according to the Talmud God likes the most the blood from
circumcision and the Paschal Holocaust!  During the circumcision the "Mohel"
- while having wine in his mouth - sucks the blood form the circumcised
penis  and then empties it in a ritual vessel, prepared for this purpose
(Jewish Encyclopedia, 1903, Vol. VI, page 99). But after this introduction
let's move on to the real discussion on the blood victims. St. William is an
interestin example for the blood victims. In 1144, during the Jewish holiday
of Passover  in the English town of Norwick they found a crucified 12 years
old boy.A converted Jew, Theobald of Chambridge led the authorities to the
discovery of the crime. The case ended up with the sainctification of the
child and the hushing up of the case. In England there were yearly blood
libel trials and they culminated with the  case of the child-murder in
Oxford in 1290. This murder, in which a Jew named Isaac de Pulet was
convicted, lead  to an edict by king Edward that resulted in the expulsion
of the Jews from England. In France the situation was the same. For example
in 1711 in the town of Blois they found a crucified Christian child whose
blood was taken. The investigation was followed by the execution of Jews
(Monumenta Germaniae Historica). The officially run investigations in many
countries could fill many books. Naturally our country was also not without
blood libels. 1494 Tyrnau. A boychild looses his life and blood. The
investigation unveils a Jewish ritual murder. The most famous, relatively
late blood libel investigation is the so called Tiszaeszlar case where a 14
year old girl, Solymos Eszter disappeared.  The discovery  was accidental.
The 5-year old child of the an employee of a Jewish synagogue said that his
mother lured the little girl into the synagogue. The investigation was led
by dr. Jozsef Bary who later became the head of the Hungarian Supreme Court.
The case ended with the arrest of a religious Jewish group who in their
confession described how they cut the little girl's throat, capturing her
blood in a ritual vase. The case was silenced at the intervention of the
Rotchild family who threatened to veto Austro/Hungarian loans. This topic is
endless but I do not want to bring up lots of cases  because they cannot be
assigned to the Jewish masses. However, history does not look so liberally
even at these cases of murders, but almost with the same stigmatization as
it looks at the slogan of the "last shield-bearer" [transl. note: reference
to Hungary's role as the last ally of Germany in WWII]. The blood libels
were not without base but it is true that Goebbels exagerated them and used
them against innocent people who had no idea about the deeds of some
religiuos fanatics."

> =======================================================

Gabor D. Farkas

In a preface to his translation of Mr Nemenyi's opus, Gabor D. Farkas
writes:

> Since there is some debate about the contents of this letter, I decided
> to help those who do not speak Hungarian and translate it. Since I don't
> have a lot of time for this, I'll make it a rough translation, I hope if
> Mr. Nemeny disagrees with it, he'll correct me (also, sorry for spelling
> errors)

No doubt Gabor meant well, but I think translating the piece was not worth
the effort.  Until now, Mr Nemenyi has confined his Goebbelsian gibberish
to Hungarian discussion groups, and has mercifully stayed away from the
English language lists.  This used to be one of his very few redeeming
virtues.

It is bad enough that we have a bunch of gibbering Nazi scumbags infesting
FORUM, the freak show run by Jozsi Hollosi for reasons known only to himself.
Hungarian Nazis are no better and no worse than Nazis elsewhere -- and
we are lucky to have most of our Nazis safely tucked away in Toronto, in
Buenos Aires, or somewhere among the cornfields of Illinois, where they are
relatively harmless.  But I see no point in publicising the existence of
that crowd to the larger world.  It is far preferable to treat them as
a dirty family secret that is best kept hidden in the attic somewhere.

-----
Gabor Fencsik

HUNGARIANS!
                               AND YOU DEAR READERS!
=20
  A world wide call from The Human Rights for Minorities in Central=20
              Europe Society, Vancouver, B.C. to celebrate with us!
=20
We invite you to celebrate with us the one thousand and one hundredth=20
         anniversary of Hungarian presence in the Carpathian basin.
     On August 20th. the light of our candles will commemorate the=20
      historic event when the Magyars settled in Hungary 1100 years ago.
         We invite you to light a candle or a lantern in your window at 9=
=20
                     p.m.according to your own time zone at the time=20
                                when the ceremonial=20
                       St. Stephen's day fireworks begin in Budapest.=20
                      Let this light shine forth and proclame we are
=20
                                            CELEBRATING!=09
=20
                                While the candles burn down,=20
                               let us remember  our history's=20
                         sorrows and joys, setbacks and glories.=20
        Reflect on the heroic, yet often tragic history of the Magyars:
 in 896 Magyars under command of Arpad settled in the Carpathian Basin.
                    in 1000  King Stephen received the title of=20
                           Apostolic Majesty from the pope.
                   in 1241  Mongols invaded and destroyed Hungary.
   in 1456  Janos Hunyadi repelled the Turks at Belgrade, =D1 church bell=
s=20
                  around the world toll at noon to mark this victory.
                          in 1526  Hungarians defeated at Mohacs.=20
                          The 150 years long Turkish rules begins.
    in 1686  liberation of Buda with Habsburg help from Turkish occupatio=
n.
               in 1848  revolution attempting to end the Habsburg rule.
                                in 1920  Trianon Peace Treaty:=20
                    Deprived 2/3 of the nation's sovereign territory.
              in 1956  revolution attempting end of Soviet occupation.
              in 1989  Hungarian part of iron curtain was cracked and=20
        thousands  were allowed to travel to the West and gain freedom =20
                     Eventually resulting the fall of the Berlin Wall.
=20
In honour of the event of this jubilee we ask you to express your=20
sympathy and recognition.
=20
Reminisce  and  Celebrate with us!  Light up the candle of your own!=20
=20
Or write us a few lines expressing your sympathy with our cause to the=20
address below or my e-mail address.
=20
1640 Esquimalt Ave. #606.,
West Vancouver, B.C.
Canada, V7V 1R6
=20
The Human Rights for Minorities in Central-Europe Vancouver Society  of=20
B.C.=20
                                                            =20
                                                              On behalf=20
of the society,
                                                                Tibor=20
Benke, Secretary
                                                                       =20
.
=20

I apologize to the readers of HUNGARY for provoking another long diatribe
from Eva Balogh.  Her vehemence is indeed frightening.  But, as so often
before, she could not substantiate her  allegations, to which I had objected.
 While she originally had complained about recent happenings on FORUM, she
now produced a post nearly two years old, whose author quotes from several
sources, (including the Jewish Encyclopedia) references to  ancient customs
having to do with various forms of bloodletting, including Jews being charged
with murder and the draining of their blood.  These accounts seem bizarre
enough, but nowhere in the quoted text did I see any reference to Jews
actually _drinking_ their alleged victims  blood.  That  may be Eva Balogh s
imagination working overtime, as when she says:

 Yet, one of this non-anti-semites claimed that in the middle ages and
later, Jews actually killed Christians and drank their blood!
                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I find Eva Balogh s debating style very disturbing.  When she can t think of
a fitting rebuttal, she goes after her opponent with the vehemence of her
nemesis, Andras Szucs, with whom she has more in common than she thinks.
 Both will repeat the same tired accusation ad infinitum, even when their
tirades are accompanied by the audible yawns of everyone else.  And when even
that doesn t work, she will go for the jugular declaring that because the
other person does not speak a particular language (Hungarian in Cecilia s
case, English in Nemenyi s) as well as she does, that other person must be
ignorant, unworthy of serious discourse.  And now she takes advantage of many
HUNGARY readers  lack of fuency in Hungarian to spread her gospel of how
terrible the people on FORUM are.  (Actually, the discussion there is at
about the same level as is here, since many of the participants are the
same.)

Please, Eva, try to calm down.  In spite of your accusation, I never said you
were a  pathological liar .  Some one else did, and I indicated my
disagreement at the time   right here on HUNGARY.  Now, that does not mean I
stated that you always told the truth, either.  I will let others be the
judge.

As I said before, I acknowledge and enjoy Eva s writing on subjects she knows
something about.  There are a number of topics on which she can write with
authority.  It is only when she lets herself be carried away by her
prejudices and temperament or  lowers herself to the ideological
gutter-fights that she loses the esteem of others whose tastes run to the
more rational type of intellectual discourse.

Ferenc

much like to make two short excursions to Naples, Italy and Sofia,
Bulgaria to visit friends.  Volan offers round trip bus service to both
from Budapest for about $70.  I think $140 sounds like a nice price.
However, I don't want to spend more than a week total out of Hungary.
Using Volan, that would roughly give me four days to spend in both places
with three devoted to traveling.
    Does anyone know how I could shorten the travel time while keeping the
cost within my budget (below $200, preferably way below 8-).  How do rail
prices compare with the Volan quote?  Would it be possible to get to
Bulgaria from Italy directly (or vice virsa) so that I wouldn't have to go
back to Budapest?

        Norb

Norbert Ja'nos Udvardy-Walter      | "If a nation does not want a monarchy,
Fort Worth, Texas, USA             |  change the nation's mind.  If a nation
I-net:  |  does not need a monarchy, change the
3W: http://delta.is.tcu.edu/~walter|  nation's needs."       -- Jan C. Smuts

Eva Balogh writes:
>         I thought that you were leaving and had no time to continue our
> discussion. Therefore, I didn't marshal any evidence and didn't go over
your
> letter point by point. But perhaps it is still not too late.

I am really leaving for two weeks on Monday.

The original issue was whether Hungary would have been better off and have
developed faster if Rakoczi has won and not whether comparatively Hungary
was ahead of parts of western Europe.
Rakoczi's base was Transylvania and northern Hungary,although through Ilona
Zrinyi he had good connection to Croatia and the southwestern corner also.

These areas were, at that time, economically more developed than the center
part of the Hungary, which even today is much less industrialized than the
rest.

Those were the areas that aslo were on a higher cultural level than the
rest of the country.

At least for Transylvania, the religious tolerance was on a far more
advanced level, even with the Greek orthodox church than in other parts of
the Habsburgh realm.

The value of education was also better understood both in Transylvania and
 at that time by the Reformed church. Education is a basis for economic and
social development.

Industrial development is generally following commercial development. The
commercial contacts were also more developed in Transylvania, northern
Hungary and Croatia.

The Habsburgh aimes at the time were the expantion and domination to the
east, and certainly with the continuous trouble they had with the
Hungarians in Hungary since 1526, was not endearing the Hungarians to them.

Please do not restrict the issues to the 15 year war. In the XVII century
there were still major wars between the Turks and the Habsburghs led
alliances. The majority of these wars took place from Belgrade to Vienna
mostly through the center of Hungary. Naturally, there was no road building
or establishment of commercial centers or industrial development in the war
zone. But by Rakoczi's time the Turks were south of the border and the
development of the central zone could have began. The Habsburghs were
from that time on favoring development of their own areas and blocking the
devlopment of Hungarian areas. As an example, the mercury mines in
Transylvania were shut down after the Habsburgh takeover to help the
Tyrolean mines.

There was no strong Turkey left for the Hungarians to play their
swing policy, so the Habsburgh control became stiffling and it was that way
until the 1840s when folks like Szechenyi realized that economic
development and economic indepedence is a cornerstone of freedom.

In Rakoczi's time there was a seed which could have grown. When it was
stomped into the ground, the Habsburghs had nothing to fear for a long time
to come. Unfortunately, there were always Hungarians who also helped them.

Regards, Jeliko.
PS With Latin being a very common language, I am not surprised that the
Bible was translated later in Hungary (Transylvania) than in either Poland
or Chechia. It was also more the result of the larger reformed churches
using the language of the people and not Latin. A "few" years later the
Catholic church followed this example even in the "developed" nations.

I want to get the Texans after me also!

To my knowledge, there are  (or were) no longhorns or similar cattle breed
in western Europe. How did they end up in Texas via Mexico from Spain?

Considering that the longhorns of Hungary are a very hardy breed, could it
be possible that the "non-existent" cattle trade from Hungary reached the
starting areas of the Spanish cattle export to the new world?

Yes, I agree that there were no Hungarians selling longhorns to the
arriving Spaniards.

All comments welcome (even from city slickers).

I hope that by the time I get back, the issue will be resolved.

Regards You'll, Jeliko.

Norb writes:
  Would it be possible to get to
> Bulgaria from Italy directly (or vice virsa) so that I wouldn't have to
go
> back to Budapest?

Yes Norb, you can take the ferry from Italy to Dubrovnik, the train from
Dubrovnik to Belgrade and the train from Belgrade to Sofia. I'll lend you
my field greens, they should be of some help until you get to the Bulgarain
border.

Did this come to mind from the kalandozasok discussion? I think those guys
went between the two places via Hungary, so they could change suitcases.

Have a good trip,

Regards,Jeliko.

Jeliko wrote:

> To my knowledge, there are  (or were) no longhorns or similar cattle breed
> in western Europe. How did they end up in Texas via Mexico from Spain?
>
> Considering that the longhorns of Hungary are a very hardy breed, could it
> be possible that the "non-existent" cattle trade from Hungary reached the
> starting areas of the Spanish cattle export to the new world?

This is mainly a guess on my part, based on what I can recall from my animal-
husbandry courses and readings:

The Hungarian Gray (the official name of Jeliko's Longhorn) is an ancient
type of cattle, a biological relic.  It survived in the Hungarian plains
(and not elsewhere in Hungary) because it was suited for the extensive type
of grazing animal husbandry practised there, in the inhospitable
circumstances of an arid climate and poor, saline land growing poor pasture.

In Western European agriculture, such ancient types of cattle have long been
replaced by new breeds that have better response to more intensive husbandry
practices such as lot feeding.  Dairy cattle are the case in point, but
Western-European beef breeds are also a long way from their ancestors.

Quite apart from everything else, long horns are a trait that are under
negative selection pressure: in the close quarters of intensified agriculture
they are outright dangerous.

Arid central Iberia with its soils often too poor to support cropping and its
extreme climate was just another European refuge for the old-type cattle, and
there was no need for any cattle trade from Hungary to establish longhorn
cattle there.

But cattle exports from Hungary to Western Europe WERE very much prevalent
since early times following Hungarian settlement.  Such trade was the main
source of revenue to Hungary in mediaeval times, as far as I can recall some
history texts.  Of course, Hungarian cattle was not for breeding but for beef,
but it is not impossible that some may have been passed on as far as Spain.
So, there may even be some genetic link, although Spanish longhorn looks
rather different from Hungarian Gray: it is smaller in body and it is not gray.

George Antony

At 03:31 PM 5/18/96 -0600, Karoly Csipkay wrote:

>        1./ I did not mean that the history contributions are the only ones
>I read, or deem worth reading. But I did mean, that the eternal clashes on
>gayness don't really belong here, and are utterly boring. Like religion,
>gayness is not debatable. The gays despise the straights, the straights
>despise the gays, and never the twain will meet. It's not a Hungarian
>problem, it's global. As far as I know, the net has some gay and lesbian
>lists, argue there, if you must.

        I disagree here. Attitudes toward gays and lesbians in Hungary do
belong to this list. I also question the statement that "gays despise the
straights, the straighs despise the gays." For six years I was dean of Morse
College, Yale University, and during this period I met scores of gay and
lesbian students. I didn't despise them and I don't think that they despised
me or their straight classmates. On the whole, they were the nicest people I
have ever met. Some of them confided in me; others didn't. In some cases I
knew or suspected their sexual orientations, in others I didn't. But it
surely didn't make any difference as far as I was concerned. As perhaps some
of you know, I show dogs (basset hounds) as a hobby and the "dog world" is
absolutely full of gays and lesbians. (Perhaps, because they cannot have
children, they shower their affection on pets.) I have never found anything
wrong with any of these people: some of them are nice; others I like less.
And one more thing, since I sell puppies here and there: I sold at least two
puppies in the last twelve years or so to gay couples. They have been the
most responsible dog owners. One cannot ask for better ones. And two days
ago two guys who bought a puppy from me nine years ago phoned me: their dog
died and they wanted to buy a new puppy if I had one. These two guys are
still together! After nine years! So, please, let's not generalize.

        I think that like in many other things the eastern bloc and the
former Soviet Union are very much behind times when it comes to education
concerning homosexuality. While in the United States and Canada (the two
countries I am most familair) college-educated people for the most part are
fairly enlightened on the subject, the same thing cannot be said about the
former Soviet bloc. A fascinating scenario can be detected in Hungary
concerning the topic. On the one hand, there is a fairly antagonistic--and
more important, ignorant--population and, on the other, there is the
Constitutional Court which is very forward looking. The judges just ruled
that gay/lesbian couples living in a common household, like any other
couple, are subject to the same legal protection as heterosexual couples.
Thus there is a huge gap between the ordinary citizen, on the one hand, and
a very small intellectual elite, when it comes to legislation of this sort.

>        2./ Anti-semitism is another tiresome subject.

        Tiresome it might be but unfortunately it is still a topic of some
concern in Hungary as well as the Hungarian-related lists on the Internet.

>An awful lot of
>worldwide sympathy the Jews attracted after the Holocaust, has been lost
>because of their behaviour towards the Palestinians, whose land they had no
>more rights to than we here have to the land of Indians.

        But let's not mix up the question of the state of Israel and those
Hungarians who are as Hungarian as I am. The Hungarians of Jewish ancestry
chose Hungary as their homeland--not Israel. They have as much right to that
land as I have. Their ancestors came to Hungary two hundred years ago, maybe
one hundred and fifty years ago. So did some of mine. They shouldn't be
branded as some alien body in the living soul of the Hungarian nation. And
unfortunately the Hungarian political right is paying more and more
attention to the national issue and the nation they so emphasize doesn't
seem to encompass the Hungarian Jewish population.

>        3./My metaphore "I wish that those who are not proud of their
>heritage would crawl into a hole and come out only for their payckecks" was
>not appropriately chosen, according to my wife. It was one of my more angry
>utterances.

        I assume that your original remark was prompted by Andy Kozma's
posting. But, you see, the trouble here is that Andy, who is Jewish, can't
quite believe his eyes when he reads the FORUM. He says to himself: My God,
I did the right thing when I left Hungary and I came to Canada. I can't
quite believe what I hear: this people hate me. I always thought I was a
Hungarian and day after day I read that I don't belong to that nation. Why
should Andy Kozma be terribly proud to be a Hungarian. He is told day in and
day out that he isn't. I am not Jewish and I am ashamed about what's going
on in the FORUM. What Andy said is perfectly understandable after reading a
few issues of the FORUM. I am sure that within a few days the archives will
be open again and people interested will be able to peruse the issues of all
the HIX forums from day one on.

        With best wishes, Eva [Balogh]

I am going to Hungary in October, with friends who are Hungarian.
One of my purposes of this trip is to hunt pheasant and other birds and
small game.  We will be in the vicinity of Szeged, but will have
transportation to other areas.  I would appreciate any information or
references on hunting there and related topics.
     Regards,
     Elbert Bivins

At 08:10 20/05/96 +1000, George Antony wrote:
>Jeliko wrote:
>
>> To my knowledge, there are  (or were) no longhorns or similar cattle breed
>> in western Europe. How did they end up in Texas via Mexico from Spain?

><snip snip>

>The Hungarian Gray (the official name of Jeliko's Longhorn) is an ancient
>type of cattle, a biological relic.  It survived in the Hungarian plains
>(and not elsewhere in Hungary) because it was suited for the extensive type
>of grazing animal husbandry practised there, in the inhospitable
>circumstances of an arid climate and poor, saline land growing poor pasture.

><snip again>

>Arid central Iberia with its soils often too poor to support cropping and its
>extreme climate was just another European refuge for the old-type cattle, and
>there was no need for any cattle trade from Hungary to establish longhorn
>cattle there.

<snip again>
>George Antony

Yes, and, although I am not an expert on this subject by any means, it seems
to me that the Scottish Highland cattle are also a breed of longhorns, and
they also have very shaggy coats (and bangs!). Because they are excetionally
rugged, they are well suited to the harsh conditions in the Highlands of
Scotland, and there would also be relatively wide open spaces for grazing
there, I would imagine.

Regards,

Johanne

Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail -  
>