Istvan Lippai wrote:
>
....
>     A szakmamban, ha mondok valamit ami nem igaz, azt konnyen (ha megvan a
> tudasod) meg tudod cafolni.  Matematika es fizika tudomanya nem megbocsato.
>  A tortenelem az mas, vannak olyanok akik egy bizonyos allaspontot akarnak
> elorehalasztani.  Tudom, hogy Te nem azok koze tartozol.  Ugyanakkor nem
> vagyok hajlando elfogadni 'aheringer' gyengen burkolt allaspontjat, hogy
> amiert a torok hoditok jok voltak az o oseikhez, a 150-eves torok hatalom
> jo volt a magyaroknak.  O es a tarsai a HUNGARY listan hazudozonak hivtak
> amiert azt mondtam, hogy 1945-1956 alatt a Himnuszt csak a templomban
> lehetett enekelni.
>    Mondd meg tortenesz baratom, mi tortent volna, ha egy csoport magyar
> nyilvanos helyen enekelte volna a Himnuszt a Rakosi idelye alatt?
> Udv: Istvan

En nem hivnalak "hazudozonak", de tevedesrol azert talan szo lehet. 
Mert igenis meg van a "tudasom" ahhoz, hogy konnyen megcafoljam az
allitasodat.
Nem vagyok tortenesz, de nem osregi tortenelemrol van szo. En az
50-56-os evek alatt nyilvanos, altalanos iskolaba jartam Pesten. Ott
tanultam meg enekelni (a rendes dallamon kivul) a magyar himnusz masodik
(alt) szolamat, az iskolakorusban. Elo is adtuk, valami evzaro unnepely
folyaman. Templomba (mecsetbe, zsinagogaba, stb.) nem jartam.
Tehat lehet, hogy a te korulmenyeid masmilyenek voltak, es igy maskep
emlekezel arra, hogy mi volt es mi nem volt lehetseges.

Biszmillah,

Sam

For Immediate Release
February, 11, 1997
Attention:  International Media-Religion Editors

Headline:   Romes Challenge:  Why Do Protestants Keep Sunday ?

In March, 1893, the International Religious Liberty Association printed a
number of resolutions in a tract entitled, "Appeal and Remonstrance." On
receipt of one of these, the editor of the Catholic Mirror of Baltimore,
Md., published a series of four editorials.  These articles are the open
challenge of the Roman Catholic Church to Protestantism, and the demand of
the Roman Catholics why Protestants shall render to the papacy an account
of why they keep Sunday, and also of how they keep it.

Four editorials appeared September 2, 9, 16, and 23, 1893 in  "The
Catholic Mirror." the official organ of Cardinal Gibbons and the Roman
Catholic Church in the United States.

To access the full text of all four editorials in the publication, "Romes
Challenge: Why Do protestants Keep Sunday ?"  contact:   

http://www.present-truth.org/library/books/romeschallenge/romeschallenge.h
tml

________________________________________________________________________



Scholar Responds to Questions Pertaining to the Historical Change of the
Biblical Sabbath on Internet Newsgroups and Mailing Lists.

A PROPOSAL FOR A FRIENDLY SABBATH DISCUSSION 
by Samuele Bacchiocchi, Ph. D., Professor of Theology and Church
History,Andrews University


Dear Michaela:

        Thank you for alerting readers to the existence of a web page
devoted to an Anti-Sabbath discussion. Personally I am attracted toward
those who are seeking to understand truth rather than to attack those who
may disagree with them.
        If you or other members in this discussion forum are intested to
discuss in a friendly and respectful way Biblical, historical or
theological aspects of the Sabbath/Sunday question, I would be glad to
interact with you.
        First of all let me identify myself.  I am Seventh-day Adventist
scholar, currently serving as Professor of Theology and Church History at
Andrews University. I am the author of 13 books, three of which on the
Sabbath. I view myself as a Biblical and not a denominational scholar.
By this I means that the aim of my research is not to defend
denominational traditions, but to ascertain what the Bible teaches on
vital aspects of our Christian faith and practice. To preserve my
scholarly freedon and integrity I choose to publish my own books. This
means that my books
reflect my personal views and not necessarily those of my denomination.
        I grew up as a Seventh-day Adventist in Rome, Italy, a stone-throw
from the Vatican wall in the days when considerable hostility existed
against religious minorities. I vividly remember the ridicule and
rejection I experienced, especially for honoring the Savior on the
Sabbath. For
example, my classmates called me "Il Giudeo-the Jew," or "L'eretico-the
heretic" because I would not attend school on Saturday and would not play
soccer with them on that day.
        These painful experienced instilled within me the desire to know
more about which is God's Holy Day and how should it be observed by
Christians today. As a teenager I would have never imagined that the Lord
would one day make it possible for me to research and publish my
dissertation at the most prestigious Jesuit University in the world, the
Pontifical Gregorian University, founded by Ignatius Loyola himself, over
450 years ago.
        The idea of attending the Gregoriana was suggested to me by a
beloved Catholic priest, Father Ravasio, whom I came to know in Ethiopia
where I was serving as a missionary. One day I told him that I had been
accepted at Yale for a doctoral program in Church History. He replied:
"Sam
you are a Roman and should go to study at the Gregoriana."  How can I? I
replied. Surely they will never accept a heretic like me. "Don't say
that!" he said.  "After Vatican II you are no longer a heretic. You are a
separated brother. If you apply, you stand a good chance to be accepted."
I
followed his advice.
        Truly I can say that though I was accepted as a "Separated
Brother," I was treated as a real Christian brother. I treasure the
pleasant memories of the five years I spent at the Gregoriana. The
professor who directed my dissertation, Father Vincenzo Monachino, S. J.,
is brilliant, godly and open minded. At first he was reluctant to allow me
to investigate the origin of Sundaykeeping, because he had worked on the
same subject for the previous two years with a Jesuit priest C. S.
Mosna, who also wrote his dissertation on the history of Sunday during the
first four centuries (STORIA DELLA DOMENICA --HISTORY OF SUNDAY). When he
noticed my keen interest he graciously approved my proposal and spent many
hours with me reexamining the Biblical and historical data. It takes a
great scholar to be willing to reconsider one's conclusions. Prof.
Monachino was such a scholar whom I will respect for the rest of my life.
        My dissertation was first published in 1977 by the Pontifical
Gregorian University Press with the official Catholic imprimatur. Since
then it has been reprinted 13 times in English and has been translated in
a dozen of languages. The French tanslation was done by two Belgian
Benedictine monks as a labor of love and published by a Catholic press in
Paris. Unfortunately I will not be able to download sections of my
dissertation dealing with questions that undoubtedly some of you will ask.
 The reason is that  the typsetting was done in Rome by lynotype. I do
have stored in my computer, however, articles and other books I would be
glad to share with you.
        If you are interested I could post a brief introductory articles
which summarizes the highlights of my dissertation. This brief summary
could provide the basis for a discussion.  I shall be waiting to hear from
you and members of this forum.  Since I am new, I do not want to post
material that could antagonize the mebers of this list.
        Scholarls of all persuasions have favorably reviewed my three
books on the Sabbath. I will post only a sampling of their comments to
give you an idea of how my Sabbath research has been received by those who
have reviewed it.

COMMENTS ABOUT THE BOOKS WRITTEN BY DR. BACCHIOCCHI

"FROM SABBATH TO SUNDAY is a thorough and painstaking piece of research,
which every investigator in the future will have to take into account."
        Bruce M. Metzger, Professor of New Testament
        PRINCETON THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY

"The warning has gone out, Sunday is in trouble. . . . In order to gain a
much needed perspective on this issue, a practical and worthwhile reading
of FROM SABBATH TO SUNDAY is needed."
        Thomas G. Simmons, Director, CATHOLIC DIVINE WORSHIP APOSTOLATE
        Review, MODERN LITURGY MAGAZINE

"FROM SABBATH TO SUNDAY is a remarkable ecumenical portent. After reading
this solid piece of research any reasonable person must question the
general easy uncritical acceptance of Sunday as the Lord's Day."
        Marcus Ward, THE EXPOSITORY TIMES, England

"The scholarship of FROM SABBATH TO SUNDAY is not just impeccable, it is
truly a marvel. No patristic stone has been left unturned.  An when, as in
several instances, Dr. Bacchiocchi's patristic and scriptural
interpretations are opposed to traditional interpretation, they are
generally quite thought-provoking and in all rather persuasive.  I am
really most thoroughly impressed by the scope and vision of the work."
        W. A. Jurgens
        Review, THE CATHOLIC HISTORICAL REVIEW

"FROM SABBATH TO SUNDAY goes over the traces of early Christianity in a
very serious way to show how and why Christians moved their day of worship
from Saturday to Sunday. . . . People who consider themselves far removed
from the issue, will find something or other in this book that will lead
them to a new understanding of worship."
        Martin E. Marty, Ph. D., Prof. Church History, Chicago
DivinitySchool,
        Review, THE CHRISTIAN CENTURY

"FROM SABBATH TO SUNDAY is a well-researched and well-written treatise
that combines erudition, devotion, and an irenic spirit. ... The
implications are staggering, not only for the Sabbath/Sunday question
itself, but also because of the larger question of the relations between
the Old and New Testaments."
        Don A. Carson, Ph. D.
        Editor of the symposium FROM SABBATH TO THE LORD'S DAY

"DIVINE REST FOR HUMAN RESTLESSNESS invites every reader to a penetrating
and suggestive analysis of the tradition and significance of
Sabbathkeeping."
        Most Reverend Cardinal Joseph L. Bernardin
        ARCHBISHOP OF CHICAGO

"Regardless of one's ecclesiastical orientation, he will find Dr.
Bacchiocchi's FROM SABBATH TO SUNDAY, a most impressive, helpful work of
first rank scholarship.  He has put the whole world in his debt . . ."
        Vernon C. Grounds, President,
        DENVER CONSERVATIVE BAPTIST THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY

Christian regards

Samuele Bacchiocchi, Ph. D.,
Professor of Theology and Church History, Andrews University
4990 Appian Way
Berrien Springs, MI 49103

Phone (616) 471-2915  Fax (616) 471-4013

E-mail   
             

Szervusz!

	I agree with Chris that Hungarian is a very difficult language, 
but also that it is relatively hard to pronounce. I am only 14, but have 
been teaching myself Hungarian (from "scratch") for three years now. If 
you wish, visit my Hungarian language page which has words, phrases, and 
Hungarian pronounciation. It is at 
http://www.vanisle.net/users/rwhitela/language.htm

	I hope I've been of assistance.

				Scott
-- 










*****************************************************************
Köszönöm szépen ("Thank you very much" in Hungarian)
Bob/Liz/Scott Whitelaw

E-Mail - 
Phone - (604) 721-2108
Fax - (604) 721-0668

Victoria, Canada
*****************************************************************

Szervusz, es jo napot! Scott Whitelaw vagyok, es 14 eves vagyok. 
I live in Canada, and would like to have as MANY Hungarian friends as 
humanly possible! I love your country so much, even though I have NEVER 
been there (that will soon change as I am visting Hungary in August!!!!).

	I have been learning the language for three years, so I can 
understand a great deal of what is being said on this newgroup of yours. 
Please, if any of you are interested, reply to this message, and we can 
begin a pen-pal friendship!

	Koszonet szepen!

			Scott








*****************************************************************
Köszönöm szépen ("Thank you very much" in Hungarian)
Bob/Liz/Scott Whitelaw

E-Mail - 
Phone - (604) 721-2108
Fax - (604) 721-0668

Victoria, Canada
*****************************************************************

On 8 Feb 1997 08:31:55 GMT, MDtoCEO > wrote:
>Ketto cicam van, es Szolonak es Fustnek hivnak.  Nem vagyok magyar, de
>valamikor a nev a lekel hangja.  Ilyenkor, nalunk, az angol meg nem felel.

Hi Chris/Kristof!

It's amazing how you learned Hungarian without being a descendent.  I'm
sure I am not alone with my curiosity of finding out the why and the
how. So let's hear it, shall we?

Thanks,
Joe Pannon

Eva Kende > wrote in article 
> "Templomaink varoskepi jelentosege a torok hodoltsag koraban mar
> megvaltozott. Budavara uj urai muzulman imahellye alakitottak at a
> regi kereszteny templomokat, s azokon kivul meg ujakat is epitettek."

    Ugy latszik, hogy evvel 'Eva Kende' ezt ugy akarja magyarazni, hogy a
torok uralom alatt kereszteny templomokat epitettek.  
    At ugrott a HUNGARY listarol (ahol az en hagyatekos magyar irasomat
kegyetlenul megcsufoljak), es be akarja bizonyitani, hogy a torok hodulas
alatt vallas szabadsag volt hazankban.  Ha irni nem nagyon, de olvasni
tudok magyarul. 
    En ugy olvasom, hogy a torokok nem kereszteny templomokat hanem
muzulman templomokat epitettek miutan a kereszteny templomokat muzulman
imahellye atalakitottak.
    Eva, ha akarod, leforditom a te idezesedet angolra neked.  
Istvan

For Immediate Release
February, 11, 1997
Attention:  International Media-Religion Editors

Headline:   Romes Challenge:  Why Do Protestants Keep Sunday ?

In March, 1893, the International Religious Liberty Association printed a
number of resolutions in a tract entitled, "Appeal and Remonstrance." On
receipt of one of these, the editor of the Catholic Mirror of Baltimore,
Md., published a series of four editorials.  These articles are the open
challenge of the Roman Catholic Church to Protestantism, and the demand of
the Roman Catholics why Protestants shall render to the papacy an account
of why they keep Sunday, and also of how they keep it.

Four editorials appeared September 2, 9, 16, and 23, 1893 in  "The
Catholic Mirror." the official organ of Cardinal Gibbons and the Roman
Catholic Church in the United States.

To access the full text of all four editorials in the publication, "Romes
Challenge: Why Do protestants Keep Sunday ?"  contact:   

http://www.present-truth.org/library/books/romeschallenge/romeschallenge.h
tml

________________________________________________________________________



Scholar Responds to Questions Pertaining to the Historical Change of the
Biblical Sabbath on Internet Newsgroups and Mailing Lists.

A PROPOSAL FOR A FRIENDLY SABBATH DISCUSSION 
by Samuele Bacchiocchi, Ph. D., Professor of Theology and Church
History,Andrews University


Dear Michaela:

        Thank you for alerting readers to the existence of a web page
devoted to an Anti-Sabbath discussion. Personally I am attracted toward
those who are seeking to understand truth rather than to attack those who
may disagree with them.
        If you or other members in this discussion forum are intested to
discuss in a friendly and respectful way Biblical, historical or
theological aspects of the Sabbath/Sunday question, I would be glad to
interact with you.
        First of all let me identify myself.  I am Seventh-day Adventist
scholar, currently serving as Professor of Theology and Church History at
Andrews University. I am the author of 13 books, three of which on the
Sabbath. I view myself as a Biblical and not a denominational scholar.
By this I means that the aim of my research is not to defend
denominational traditions, but to ascertain what the Bible teaches on
vital aspects of our Christian faith and practice. To preserve my
scholarly freedon and integrity I choose to publish my own books. This
means that my books
reflect my personal views and not necessarily those of my denomination.
        I grew up as a Seventh-day Adventist in Rome, Italy, a stone-throw
from the Vatican wall in the days when considerable hostility existed
against religious minorities. I vividly remember the ridicule and
rejection I experienced, especially for honoring the Savior on the
Sabbath. For
example, my classmates called me "Il Giudeo-the Jew," or "L'eretico-the
heretic" because I would not attend school on Saturday and would not play
soccer with them on that day.
        These painful experienced instilled within me the desire to know
more about which is God's Holy Day and how should it be observed by
Christians today. As a teenager I would have never imagined that the Lord
would one day make it possible for me to research and publish my
dissertation at the most prestigious Jesuit University in the world, the
Pontifical Gregorian University, founded by Ignatius Loyola himself, over
450 years ago.
        The idea of attending the Gregoriana was suggested to me by a
beloved Catholic priest, Father Ravasio, whom I came to know in Ethiopia
where I was serving as a missionary. One day I told him that I had been
accepted at Yale for a doctoral program in Church History. He replied:
"Sam
you are a Roman and should go to study at the Gregoriana."  How can I? I
replied. Surely they will never accept a heretic like me. "Don't say
that!" he said.  "After Vatican II you are no longer a heretic. You are a
separated brother. If you apply, you stand a good chance to be accepted."
I
followed his advice.
        Truly I can say that though I was accepted as a "Separated
Brother," I was treated as a real Christian brother. I treasure the
pleasant memories of the five years I spent at the Gregoriana. The
professor who directed my dissertation, Father Vincenzo Monachino, S. J.,
is brilliant, godly and open minded. At first he was reluctant to allow me
to investigate the origin of Sundaykeeping, because he had worked on the
same subject for the previous two years with a Jesuit priest C. S.
Mosna, who also wrote his dissertation on the history of Sunday during the
first four centuries (STORIA DELLA DOMENICA --HISTORY OF SUNDAY). When he
noticed my keen interest he graciously approved my proposal and spent many
hours with me reexamining the Biblical and historical data. It takes a
great scholar to be willing to reconsider one's conclusions. Prof.
Monachino was such a scholar whom I will respect for the rest of my life.
        My dissertation was first published in 1977 by the Pontifical
Gregorian University Press with the official Catholic imprimatur. Since
then it has been reprinted 13 times in English and has been translated in
a dozen of languages. The French tanslation was done by two Belgian
Benedictine monks as a labor of love and published by a Catholic press in
Paris. Unfortunately I will not be able to download sections of my
dissertation dealing with questions that undoubtedly some of you will ask.
 The reason is that  the typsetting was done in Rome by lynotype. I do
have stored in my computer, however, articles and other books I would be
glad to share with you.
        If you are interested I could post a brief introductory articles
which summarizes the highlights of my dissertation. This brief summary
could provide the basis for a discussion.  I shall be waiting to hear from
you and members of this forum.  Since I am new, I do not want to post
material that could antagonize the mebers of this list.
        Scholarls of all persuasions have favorably reviewed my three
books on the Sabbath. I will post only a sampling of their comments to
give you an idea of how my Sabbath research has been received by those who
have reviewed it.

COMMENTS ABOUT THE BOOKS WRITTEN BY DR. BACCHIOCCHI

"FROM SABBATH TO SUNDAY is a thorough and painstaking piece of research,
which every investigator in the future will have to take into account."
        Bruce M. Metzger, Professor of New Testament
        PRINCETON THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY

"The warning has gone out, Sunday is in trouble. . . . In order to gain a
much needed perspective on this issue, a practical and worthwhile reading
of FROM SABBATH TO SUNDAY is needed."
        Thomas G. Simmons, Director, CATHOLIC DIVINE WORSHIP APOSTOLATE
        Review, MODERN LITURGY MAGAZINE

"FROM SABBATH TO SUNDAY is a remarkable ecumenical portent. After reading
this solid piece of research any reasonable person must question the
general easy uncritical acceptance of Sunday as the Lord's Day."
        Marcus Ward, THE EXPOSITORY TIMES, England

"The scholarship of FROM SABBATH TO SUNDAY is not just impeccable, it is
truly a marvel. No patristic stone has been left unturned.  An when, as in
several instances, Dr. Bacchiocchi's patristic and scriptural
interpretations are opposed to traditional interpretation, they are
generally quite thought-provoking and in all rather persuasive.  I am
really most thoroughly impressed by the scope and vision of the work."
        W. A. Jurgens
        Review, THE CATHOLIC HISTORICAL REVIEW

"FROM SABBATH TO SUNDAY goes over the traces of early Christianity in a
very serious way to show how and why Christians moved their day of worship
from Saturday to Sunday. . . . People who consider themselves far removed
from the issue, will find something or other in this book that will lead
them to a new understanding of worship."
        Martin E. Marty, Ph. D., Prof. Church History, Chicago
DivinitySchool,
        Review, THE CHRISTIAN CENTURY

"FROM SABBATH TO SUNDAY is a well-researched and well-written treatise
that combines erudition, devotio

In article > Zoltan Gagyi-Palffy,
 writes:
>Talan megis van valaki a vonalban, aki _erdemleges_valaszt
>kepes adni.

Mit ertesz erdemleges valaszon ? Trivialitas, hogy a finnugor
alapszokincshez tartozik, ha a ficko vette volna a faradtsagot,
es feluti a legegyszerubb nyelveszeti temaju konyvet, nagy
valoszinuseggel pont ebbe a peldaba botlik. Az hogy az elme-
lete  egyik legfontosabb alapallitasat le sem ellenorizte, 
minositi az egesz elmeletet.

Az os finnugor szo valoszinuleg p betuvel kezdodott, es egye-
dul a magyar nyelvben alakult at 'f' betuve. (Szamos egyeb 'f'
kezdobetus szavunkon megfigyelheto ez a jelenseg.) A tobbi
finnugor nyelvben megmaradt a 'p' kezdobetu. Zurjenben peldaul
ugyanolyan a tobbesszama is (piu-> piuk), mint magyarban.

Tamas (se tortenesz se nyelvesz)

elvtarsak! 

ki ez a Coloradoi bunko?!
    


                                udvozlet Bogesz

On 8 Feb 97 21:23:35 +0200, (Michael Hajovsky)
wrote in response to Joe Pannon:

> History remains always history. 1,000 or 5,000 years old. It will
> remain on the books forever.

....

> > Well, George, military defeats had consequences not only in this
> > century, but even more so 11 centuries ago.
> 
> Some military, but mostly attrocities against unarmed, peaceful 
> civilians and taking their land from them.


And then on 9 Feb 1997 04:14:07 GMT, again in response to Joe Pannon:

> > About those attrocities ...  Did you see 'em in the 6 o'clock news?
>
> The only reason they were not on the 6 o'clock news is that there were
> no 6 o'clock news. Surely you do not suggest that the pilfering
> invaders paid for the conquered land and resettled the natives. More
> likely they either killed everyone living on the land, or forcibly
> drove them away.


There are no 6 o'clock news in the TV chains broadcasted in Slovakia,
right. They are either at 19:30 or 20 h. However, this is not the only 
reason why they don't discuss about the pilfering invaders who conquered 
the country. 

In fact, the pilfering invaders who conquered the country already have
stolen the television and the radio. They have fired the journalist and
replaced them by arrogant, incompetent servants. The so-called "public
entreprises under public law" are now preparing and broadcasting
smearing
campaigns against the President Kovac, against the "traitors and enemies
of the nation", yes, the opposition parties and their leaders, and 
violating the law. They were condemned by the journalist professionals
and international and international public opinion. They were condemned
many times by Slovak courts in Slovakia for violations of the Slovak law
on labor (fir illegal political purges) and civil law (many lost cases
for
defamation). Many serious irregularities in funds management were also 
reported. The link to the Slovak Services is also obvious.

The pilfering invaders have "privatised" the country. The Kosice VSZ
steel
works have been sold to a circle of persons around the ruling HZDS in a 
way that the Fund of National Property suffered a billion damage. 
Nafta Gbely, a multi-billion entreprise was sold for peanuts to a newly 
established society with ridiculous capital. More recently, the Pulp and 
Paperworks shares that should not be sold at all (law on strategic 
entreprises violated in a usual way, remember VSZ) were sold for 100 Skk 
a share - their market value was then 900 Skk. Now the entreprise is
about
to be sold again, this time to a Swedish group, and this time for the
right
price. Damage for the FNM is Skk 347 million. The Slovak national
airline
company was born. It will be using Russian aircraft fleet, is co-owned
by a Russians-controlled bank and the conditions of the transaction
allowed
a massive transfer of resources to Russian investors behind. 

And all that are only a few facts - this is going on everyday. Now the
big
issue is who will "privatise" the banks. If it is the VSZ steelworks of
other indebted groups, they will be able to "forget" about their debt
and
eventually dominate the economy of the country. 

Thus I don't understand this whining about the thousand-year oppression. 
The today's chapter of the Slovak tragedy is being written right now. 
And it is a Slovako-Slovak battle. Crying about evil Cechuni and bad 
Hungarians is only a way to escape the cruel reality.

Roman Kanala