=20
   Sz=E9n=E1si szerint a per el=F5tt k=E1rosak a b=F5si tal=E1lgat=E1sok
  =20
   Szil=E1gyi A. J=E1nos
  =20
   H=E1gai poz=EDci=F3inkat k=E1rosan befoly=E1solhatj=E1k a v=EDzl=E9pcs=
=F5vel
   kapcsolatos gyan=FAs=EDtgat=E1sok - v=E9li Sz=E9n=E1si Gy=F6rgy, aki
   Magyarorsz=E1got k=E9pviseli a h=E1gai perben. A szakember szerint nem
   lenne szabad azt a l=E1tszatot kelteni, hogy Magyarorsz=E1g nincs
   meggy=F5z=F5dve az igaz=E1r=F3l.
   Nem eg=E9szen egy h=F3nappal a h=E1gai B=F5s-per sz=F3beli szakasza (m=
=E1rcius
   3.) kezdete el=F5tt az elm=FAlt napokban komoly vihart kavartak a
   magyar-szlov=E1k szak=E9rt=F5i t=E1rgyal=E1sokr=F3l megjelent inform=E1=
ci=F3k. A
   konzult=E1ci=F3t ellenz=F5 k=F6rnyezetv=E9d=F5k, ellenz=E9ki p=E1rtok,=
 valamint az
   e k=E9rd=E9sben vel=FCk egyet=E9rt=F5 SZDSZ szerint a korm=E1nyf=F5 az
   egyezked=E9sek folytat=E1s=E1val vesz=E9lyeztetn=E9 Magyarorsz=E1g h=E1=
gai
   poz=EDci=F3it. A minisztereln=F6k a napokban alaptalannak nevezte az
   =FAjabb v=EDzl=E9pcs=F5 =E9p=EDt=E9s=E9vel kapcsolatos f=E9lelmeket, u=
gyanakkor
   k=F6z=F6lte: az ellenz=E9k nem tekinthet be a t=E1rgyal=E1sokr=F3l k=E9=
sz=FClt
   iratokba, mert ilyenek nincsenek.
   =D6nmag=E1ban a magyar- szlov=E1k t=E1rgyal=E1sok nem, a konzult=E1ci=F3=
t k=EDs=E9r=F5
   tal=E1lgat=E1sok =E9s gyan=FAs=EDtgat=E1sok viszont val=F3ban sok k=E1=
rt okozhatnak
   - reag=E1lt =E9rdekl=F5d=E9s=FCnkre a b=F5si vit=E1ban elhangzottakra =
Sz=E9n=E1si
   Gy=F6rgy k=FCl=FCgyminiszt=E9riumi f=F5oszt=E1lyvezet=F5, aki Magyaror=
sz=E1got
   k=E9pviseli a h=E1gai perben. Szerencs=E9s volna, ha a szak=E9rt=F5i
   t=E1rgyal=E1sok =FCgye v=E9gre leker=FClne a napirendr=F5l, ha a korm=E1=
ny nem
   k=E9nyszer=FClne naponta c=E1folni k=FCl=F6nf=E9le alaptalan vagy bizo=
nytalan
   eredet=FB inform=E1ci=F3kat - fogalmazott a szakember. Sz=E9n=E1si Gy=F6=
rgy
   hozz=E1tette: szeretn=E9nek a h=E1tralev=F5 id=F5ben nyugodtan k=E9sz=FC=
lni a
   t=E1rgyal=E1sra. A nemzetk=F6zi b=EDr=F3s=E1gon figyelemmel k=EDs=E9ri=
k a perben
   =E1ll=F3 orsz=E1gokban t=F6rt=E9nteket. Sz=E9n=E1si Gy=F6rgy =FAgy v=E9=
lte: nem volna
   szabad azt a l=E1tszatot kelteni, hogy Magyarorsz=E1g nincs meggy=F5z=F5=
dve
   az igaz=E1r=F3l.
   Mivel a szlov=E1k k=FCld=F6tts=E9g m=E9g nem adott v=E1laszt a magyar
   javaslatokra, egyel=F5re bizonytalan, hogy folytat=F3dnak-e =E9s ha ig=
en,
   mikor a b=F5si szak=E9rt=F5i t=E1rgyal=E1sok - tudtuk meg G=F6b=F6ly=F6=
s G=E1bort=F3l,
   a magyar szak=E9rt=F5i deleg=E1ci=F3 vezet=F5j=E9t=F5l. Az ellenz=E9ki
   k=F6vetel=E9sekr=F5l sz=F3lva G=F6b=F6ly=F6s meger=F5s=EDtette a minis=
ztereln=F6k =E9s a
   k=FCl=FCgyminiszter k=F6zl=E9s=E9t: a konzult=E1ci=F3kr=F3l nem k=E9sz=
=FCltek
   jegyz=F5k=F6nyvek. - K=F6lcs=F6n=F6sen szign=E1lt iratok a nemzetk=F6z=
i
   gyakorlatban =E1ltal=E1ban akkor sz=FCletnek, ha a felek valamiben
   egyet=E9rtenek. Itt azonban err=F5l nem volt sz=F3. Csup=E1n puhatol=F3=
z=F3
   jelleg=FB t=E1rgyal=E1sokat folytattunk. A k=FCld=F6tts=E9g tagjai csu=
p=E1n
   feljegyz=E9seket k=E9sz=EDtettek a minisztereln=F6knek arr=F3l, hogyan
   =E9rt=E9kelik a m=E1sik f=E9l javaslatait. Ezeket - a t=E1rgyal=E1sok
   megkezd=E9sekor k=F6t=F6tt meg=E1llapod=E1sunknak megfelel=F5en - biza=
lmasan
   kell kezelj=FCk - mondta G=F6b=F6ly=F6s G=E1bor.
   [LINK]=20

At 12:00 PM 2/3/97 GMT, Sam Stowe wrote:

<snip>
>Those names have everything to do with your comments. Your political
>philosophy is embedded in an eschatalogical historicism guided by the
>confident belief that the human race can be led out of its benighted past
>into a utopian future. Yet, is your confidence warranted by the historical
>record regarding totalitarian utopian politics? No, it's not. And it's not
>passivity to suggest that careful, incremental, small-scale change might
>have a greater positive impact on people's lives while minimizing the
>disruptions that always attend change. You're not into Voodoo, are you,
>Joe?

Ok, Sam.  Let's try this again.

I told you that Hegel, Vico, Spengler, and Popper, have precious little to
do with my comments.  And now you tell me that they have everything to do
with it.  So?

Tell me this, Sam.  Does the name Pavlov, ring a bell with *you*?

Joe Szalai

In article >, Eva Durant
> writes:

>I don't know, what we have now in some places, would seem like
>utopia to someone from the last century. As I said repeatedly,
>"human nature" - if there is such a thing, changed a lot
>and it is not static.
>
>Anyway, I'm "nomail" now for a few months, take care.
>If there anything you think I should really know, e-mail
>me privately.
>


See you when you get back. Take care.
Sam Stowe

"Missionaries and cannibals
make perfect couples..."
-- Paul Theroux

In article >, "Johanne L. Tournier"
> writes:

>
>An LBJ liberal would be the 1960's-type of liberal, an anachronistic
>creature who believes in the virtues of LBJ's Great Society. LBJ was
>extraordinarily successful in getting his legislative program
implemented,
>partly because of his clout with the Congress (he had been Senate
Majority
>Leader, I think, before he was picked to be JFK's V-P) and partly because
of
>the emotional outpouring following JFK's assassination. He called his
plan
>the Great Society. At the time, the aim was to fight a War on Poverty,
with
>the goal of eliminating poverty in the U.S. It is considered
old-fashioned
>liberalism now, because its proponents actually believed that the
government
>intervention would eliminate poverty, and it is discredited now, because
it
>was apparent that it was a failure.

Hey, hat trick! She manages to discuss the Great Society without referring
to the civil rights struggle, the surge of idealism among American youth
during the Kennedy administration or Johnson's foolish overcommitment of
U.S. military forces in Indochina at the behest of Robert McNamara. (which
did far more to discredit anything associated with Johnson than the
"failure" of the Great Society) Nor does La Tournier offer even an inkling
that Nixon ("hot enough fer ya down there?") was much closer to Johnson
and the evil lubbural cabal working to overthrow Amurricuh as we know it
when it came to social policy than he was Reagan or Bush. Context?
Context? We don' need no stinkin' historical context, senor!

By the way, as a scientific aside, if we got you and Szalai in the same
room together at the same time, how much energy would the resultant
political matter/anti-matter collision release?
Sam Stowe

>Hope that helps.

Helps what -- mislead her? Hey, at least you can't say you didn't try.

>
>Tisztelettel,
>
>Johanne/Janka



"Missionaries and cannibals
make perfect couples..."
-- Paul Theroux

In article >,  (Andrew
J. Rozsa) writes:

>I bet Sam, here, is referring to GREED! No?

That's part of it. I guess I was referring to what Poe called "the imp of
the perverse."

>
>Maybe Sam should share our (American) 18th century experience with
>(James Oglethorpe's Georgian) utopia.

Strange how indefatigable Americans have been about the pursuit of utopia
through communal experiences. Actually, there are some long-term successes
apart from the Latter-Day Saints. The Moravians here in North Carolina
pretty much lived up to their communal religious ideals. They remain a
fundamentally decent, peaceful people who are a delight to know on a
personal basis.

>
>Or in Walden Two, the question remains: who controls the controllers?

Better yet, why do we need controllers?

>
>Human nature, indeed.
>
>Papa Karl knew.... fershure.

You've just conjured up an image of him and Hemingway sitting
side-by-side, yoked into those deck chairs they use on deep-sea charter
boats, forty miles out in the Florida Straits, Papa Ernest working a
150-lb. marlin on a heavy rig, hissing between his teeth at the effort and
Papa Karl yammering away, oblivious to the struggle taking place a few
inches away, about how overlooked Thorstein Veblen's writings are these
days and what a shame it is...just two manly middle-aged men doing manly
middle-aged man kinds of things.

>
>It would be interesting to evaluate the success of kibutzim.... aren't
>they based on some form of local communism?

I'd be interested in knowing how many Hungarian Jews were among the first
kibbutzim in Israel.

>
>
>>cautious optimism. But I also understand that, all other things being
>>equal, human nature will always mitigate against -- indeed, thwart --
>>utopia.
>>Sam Stowe
>
>
>I guess I shouda've read the whole reply... :-)
>
>Oh, well, great minds.....

They do, don't they?
Sam Stowe

>
>
>Bandi
>-------------------------------------------
>Andrew J. Rozsa - Birmingham, Alabama, USA
>             
>
>



"Missionaries and cannibals
make perfect couples..."
-- Paul Theroux

At 04:40 AM 2/4/97 GMT, Sam Stowe, responding to Johanne Tournier, wrote:

<snip>
>By the way, as a scientific aside, if we got you and Szalai in the same
>room together at the same time, how much energy would the resultant
>political matter/anti-matter collision release?

None.  Johanne would regale me with stories about that bloodsucking Dracula,
and I'd regale her with spine chilling stories about bloodsucking
capitalists.  I'm sure we'd have a great time.

Joe Szalai

In article
>, Joe
Szalai > writes:

><snip>
>> And it's not
>> passivity to suggest that careful, incremental, small-scale change
might
>> have a greater positive impact on people's lives while minimizing the
>> disruptions that always attend change. You're not into Voodoo, are you,
>> Joe?
>
>I'm really glad that you've opted to go slow because you're going in the
>wrong direction, Sam.  And no, I'm not into Voodoo.  I'm into doodoo.
>That's why I read your prose.
>
>Joe Szalai

Joe, are you stressed out for some reason? It usually takes you two or
three more rounds of bickering before you get to the caca, poopoo insults.
I hope it wasn't something I said.
Sam Stowe

"Missionaries and cannibals
make perfect couples..."
-- Paul Theroux

>
> >It would be interesting to evaluate the success of kibutzim.... aren't
> >they based on some form of local communism?
>
> I'd be interested in knowing how many Hungarian Jews were among the first
> kibbutzim in Israel.
>
> I don't think, there were many, or any.  The first kibbutzim were
founded by Russian Jews before the Russian revolution, as a necessity.
Hungarian Jews were very happy in Hungary at the turn of the century and
did not think of pioneering in the desert.   Presently, only 2% of the
population lives on the kibbutzes, and the young ones are drifting away.
- This is what a guide told me years ago, when I visited Israel and took
tours.
> >
Regards,

Agnes Heringer

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
   urgent

Background:
   According to a statement of  the Vice President of  J.P. Morgan
from last year the bank received assurances from the Water Development
Enterprise of Slovakia that none of the loans it lead manag for this
company was spent on the Gabcikovo dam.
   In November, 1996, Miroslav B. Liska, an employee of the Water
Development Enterprise of Slovakia, indicated that the company has
received a loan for end building of Gabcikovo by a group of banks
headed by J.P. Morgan.

What to do:
    Please send a letter to the Vice President of J.P Morgan and
protest. Feel free to use the attached letter written by S.J. 
Magyarody. The letter compares the failures of the Army Corps of 
Engineers with the Gabcikovo project. 
  REMEMBER WE HAVE ONLY 4 WEEKS LEFT TO ACT. PLEASE HELP!! EVERY 
LETTER COUNTS!!

Fax 212-648-5210

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


Margaret W. Southerland              January 29, 1997
Vice President
J.P. Morgan
60 Wall Street
New York, N.Y. 10260-0060

RE: Loan to Slovakia

Dear Mrs. Southerland,

   According to a statement of your bank from July 1996 J.P. Morgan
received assurances from the Water Development Enterprise of Slovakia
that none of the loans you manage for this company will be spent
on the Gabcikovo dam.

   On the 26th of November, 1996, Miroslav B. Liska, an employee of the
Water Development Enterprise of Slovakia, indicated that the company
has received a loan to end the building of Gabcikovo by a group of banks
headed by J.P. Morgan.

   Mrs. Southerland, did J.P. Morgan manage the loan for the
completion of the Gabcikovo project? In this case, your bank did not
only neglect the warnings of numerous environmental activists who
recognized this project as environmentally disastrous and illegal, 
but J.P. Morgan also acted contrary to its statement from July
1996. Please clear this up.

   I would like to remind you that the Gabcikovo project  did the Danube
("Szigetkoz" region) exactly, what the  Corps of Engineers  did to the
Florida  wetlands.  After spending hundreds of millions of  dollars on
draining  the wetlands, straightening out of rivers with costly dams,
they have realised, that the watertable, so important to the  State,
was lowered and polluted.  Now they are spending hundreds of millions
of  dollars, to put back the  system to its original,  natural  state.

   If your experts did not explain this to you,  they did a very costly
disservice to you and your company.

   Surly, you will not  back an ecological and  financial disaster, like
the Slovakian  project. Or would you?

Sincerely

your name, title, address

At 01:52 PM 2/4/97 -0400, Agnes wrote:

>The first kibbutzim were
>founded by Russian Jews before the Russian revolution, as a necessity.
>Hungarian Jews were very happy in Hungary at the turn of the century and
>did not think of pioneering in the desert.   Presently, only 2% of the
>population lives on the kibbutzes, and the young ones are drifting away.
>- This is what a guide told me years ago, when I visited Israel and took
>tours.

        That's my understand as well. As for Hungarian Jewry in spite of the
fact that Theodore Herzl was Hungarian Zionism was rather weak in Hungary.
The majority of Russian Jews were Yiddish-speaking and totally
unassimilated. Among them Zionism, which was basically Jewish nationalism
and the idea of recreating a permanent home for Jews, was very strong and
most of the early immigrants to Palestine were Russian/Polish Jews.
Apparently in Hungary the official Jewish leadership was very much against
Zionism.

        As for an interesting description of life in a kibutz in the early
20s I can recommend Arthur Koestler's autobiography. Koestler in his varied
career at one point became enamored with Zionism and spent a year in
Palestine. He was certainly not cut out for the incredible hardship which
life in the kibutz meant. And even after he left the kibutz he was literally
starving.

        The two-volume autobiography is also interesting in many other
respects: a very interesting description of growing up in an assimilated
Jewish family in Budapest and in the second volume, his return to Hungary in
the 1930s and his friendships with leading Hungarian writers of the period,
most notably with Attila Jozsef. The chapter also contains an absolutely
wonderful translation (by Koestler himself) of Attila Jozsef's
"Szu"lete'snapomra" [For my birthday]. Perhaps the only translation of a
Hungarian poem I read which managed to give back the flavor of the original.
The titles of the volumes: Arrow in the Blue and The Invisible Writing.

        Eva Balogh

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
   urgent

Background:
   According to a statement of  the Vice President of  J.P. Morgan
from last year the bank received assurances from the Water Development
Enterprise of Slovakia that none of the loans it lead manag for this
company was spent on the Gabcikovo dam.
   In November, 1996, Miroslav B. Liska, an employee of the Water
Development Enterprise of Slovakia, indicated that the company has
received a loan for end building of Gabcikovo by a group of banks
headed by J.P. Morgan.

What to do:
    Please send a letter to the Vice President of J.P Morgan and
protest. Feel free to use the attached letter written by S.J.
Magyarody. The letter compares the failures of the Army Corps of
Engineers with the Gabcikovo project.
  REMEMBER WE HAVE ONLY 4 WEEKS LEFT TO ACT. PLEASE HELP!! EVERY
LETTER COUNTS!!

Fax 212-648-5210

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


Margaret W. Southerland              January 29, 1997
Vice President
J.P. Morgan
60 Wall Street
New York, N.Y. 10260-0060

RE: Loan to Slovakia

Dear Mrs. Southerland,

   According to a statement of your bank from July 1996 J.P. Morgan
received assurances from the Water Development Enterprise of Slovakia
that none of the loans you manage for this company will be spent
on the Gabcikovo dam.

   On the 26th of November, 1996, Miroslav B. Liska, an employee of the
Water Development Enterprise of Slovakia, indicated that the company
has received a loan to end the building of Gabcikovo by a group of banks
headed by J.P. Morgan.

   Mrs. Southerland, did J.P. Morgan manage the loan for the
completion of the Gabcikovo project? In this case, your bank did not
only neglect the warnings of numerous environmental activists who
recognized this project as environmentally disastrous and illegal,
but J.P. Morgan also acted contrary to its statement from July
1996. Please clear this up.

   I would like to remind you that the Gabcikovo project  did the Danube
("Szigetkoz" region) exactly, what the  Corps of Engineers  did to the
Florida  wetlands.  After spending hundreds of millions of  dollars on
draining  the wetlands, straightening out of rivers with costly dams,
they have realised, that the watertable, so important to the  State,
was lowered and polluted.  Now they are spending hundreds of millions
of  dollars, to put back the  system to its original,  natural  state.

   If your experts did not explain this to you,  they did a very costly
disservice to you and your company.

   Surly, you will not  back an ecological and  financial disaster, like
the Slovakian  project. Or would you?

Sincerely

your name, title, address