You are indeed lucky. Here in the UK I have a friend who has the
misfortune to look Irish and to drive cheap a car. He reckons any-
way, that these must be the reasons for him being stopped and
searched very often indeed. Similar is the fate of a lot of other
people, most of them black. The reason is given, that they act
suspiciously, or something like that, I do not know the legal term.
I have the feeling, if you only exercise the "approved" rights
you won't find undemocratic features (especially if you do not
look) but if you for example demonstrate (peacefully!!)
against an established norm, such as nuclear arms, racism or
polltax, you will be attacked most of the time (brutally) by
the police. I know, no such things ever happen in the U.S...
I am sure you will find most  pro US type democracy people in
Hungary would approve frequent stop/search practices in the
name of law and order.
Eva Durant

>
> (Eva Balogh:)
>
> > One needs schooling
> > in democratic principles which for somebody not immersed in it may find
> > baffling at first. I found that many of my Hungarian acquaintances didn't
> > have much idea about the principles of democracy as practiced, for example,
> > in the United States.
>
> Eva Durant answered:
>
> > Yes, I am baffled, too. Is it true, that 60% or less of those eligible
> > feel it worthwhile to register their vote, so governments are regularily
> > elected by circa 30% of voters?
>
> I wasn't speaking about participation in that democracy. What I had in mind
> was legal protection of individual rights. The Constitution of the United
> States and its subsequent interpretation ensures wideranging protection of
> the individual--according to some people the extent of that protection is in
> fact too far-reaching. It is this individual freedom which makes the United
> States such an attractive place to live. Continental Europe's history was
> such that authoritarian reflexes can still be felt even in democratic
> countries, like France or Germany. In Hungary it is even more so. Just
> recently I read in a Hungarian newspaper an interview where the interviewer
> was talking about too many old faces from the pre-democratic regime in the
> new government and the possible return of "wrong reflexes." These practically
> automatic, wrong, meaning undemocratic, reflexes have a long tradition in
> Hungary and it will take time and schooling to get rid of them. Just one
> small example. On the very first day of my last trip to Hungary I was in a
> car driven by a relative of mine. Suddenly, two policemen, strategically
> standing and waiting for their victims, stopped us and did a spot check at my
> poor relative's papers. There was no probable cause. In the United States,
> the police don't stop passanger cars traveling in towns or on highways
> without probable cause. My relative wasn't speeding, had working headlights,
> had all his four wheels on his car, had a registration number and so on and
> so forth. When something like that happens in Hungary I get a very bad taste
> in my mouth and immediately thank God for my good fortune for living in a
> truly free country. Eva Balogh

On 27 Jul 94 22:28:23 GMT, Imre Bokor > writes:

> in switzerland, the percentage of the eligible voters who actually vote
> is usually in the thirties, sometimes, for very controversial issues
> or elections, it might be in the forties. there is the exception of
> the canton of schaffhausen, where voting is compulsory and so the
> percentage is regularly in the nineties. i am unsure whether any other
> canton or community has compulsory voting.
>
> it is perhaps a comment on how truly people in switzerland believe in
> democracy when there is such a low turn-out. the various attempts to
> discover why this is so have generally come up with the result that the
> commonly held view of those who don't participate is that it is pointless,
> those in power do what they like anyway.
>
> i interpret that as being a sign that these people at least do *not*
> believe they live in a true democracy.


Oh-la-la, this one is rather hard to swallow;-)

Yes, it's so, in Switzerland, people usually don't go to vote very
massively. There are referendums and people's votes 3-5 times a year,
there are elections every 4 years, and it's useful to distinguish the
two.

Because of direct democracy in Switzerland, every issue, be it a
government action, a law, a Constitution article, a Supreme Court decision,
a police fine, everything can be submitted to a vote, should enough
people sign a call for petition. Government then gives a delay and a
minimum number of signatures have to be collected to a petition (that
varies depending on cantons and, of course, if the issue is federal). If
the minimum number of signatures has been reached, the government has a
legal obligation to held a votation on the subject. Many people consider
many issues to be of little importance, therefore a low participation in
many votations. 25 to 35% is a typical participation in normal cases.

However, there are votations with over 60% participation. I remember that
back in 1985, there was a votation whether to become a member of UNO,
with a verdict NO by a majority over 65%. Two years ago, there was a
votation whether to become a member of European Economic Space (not the
European Union, but a loose association of both EU and EFTA), and the
participation was quite high, with a verdict NO. There also was a
votation on whether the Swiss army has to buy US aircrafts, when the
participation was quite high. Sorry, our University library is closed
down because of holidays, so I am unable to bring exact numbers.

Subject of a votation is usually uninteresting to many, while some can
feel a concern, and it can be vital for a few. This does mean the SYSTEM
would be wrong. I consider this to be rather a democratic feature.

Low participation in elections means that these are less important than
elsewhere, since people do have legal means to tell the government they
don't like something. Remember, about a half year ago, there were cars
burned and barricades built in Frenchland because of a law regarding a
minimum revenue to young people who cannot find their first job - they
didn't have a possibility to go a Sunday to vote about the issue. Should
they have had one, what the participation would be, considering the small
fraction of population concerned?

In Switzerland, like everywhere, government composition does have some
importance, but much less than in centralized regimes, exactly because
people do have legal means to express their concern. Politician has to be
a professional, good accountant, treasurer, manager of public affairs, or
a good jurist, but unlike in the US, the rest is of little importance.
Therefore little participation in votations is absolutely normal a thing.

Roman Kanala

On Thu, 28 Jul 1994, Greg Grose wrote:

> In reply to your message of "Thu, 28 Jul 94 14: 01:28 EDT."
>              >
> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 94 11:34:03 -0700
> From: 
>
> > In the United States,
> > the police don't stop passanger cars traveling in towns or on highways
> > without probable cause.
>
> No, this is not true.  In California, at least, checkpoints to counter
> drunken driving are allowed.  All drivers are stopped, only those who
> provide probable cause are further detained/searched/tested.
>
> --Greg


As a matter of fact in California police is allowed to stop any car to
check if the seatbelts are used as of January 1, 1993.

In Florida as of 1992, cars can be stopped in some counties, to be
searched for druggs without warrent. (That might have been overturned since).


                                                        attila

Subject: Re: That peaceful, queasy feelin'
From: Greg Grose, 
Date: 27 Jul 94 01:37:51 GMT
In article > Greg Grose,
 writes:
>In reply to your message of "Mon, 25 Jul 94 15: 22:33 PDT."
>             >
>Date: Tue, 26 Jul 94 18:37:49 -0700
>From: 
>
>Will no one, (except ZF in ZF vs EB), say anything in defence of the new
PM?
>
>--Greg

what's to defend?

some contributors to this group are unhappy about some things that he has
been saying and some things he has not been saying. some disgree with
either his choice of the new top dogs in the state owned/controlled media.
some disagree with the manner in which was done.

i have yet to see any results of the new government's policies, so any
criticism or defence i could offer would be mere speculation on expected
consequences.

agreement/disagreement with him on principle seems to me to be a question
of whether one perceives any political party calling itself "socialist" as
a threat to human civilisation or a putative contribution to it. that has
then nothing to do with the prime minister himself/herself.

d.a.

d.a. writes:

> >Will no one...say anything in defence of the new PM?

> what's to defend?

Finally, a defence!  Of the criticize-results-and-not-style type, I take it.


> i have yet to see any results of the new government's policies...

So, anyone, are any of the new government's stated policies (not
principles, not style) cause for queasiness?


--Greg

I wrote:

> So, anyone, are any of the new government's stated policies (not
> principles, not style) cause for queasiness?

To be fair, that last sentence should read "...for queasiness or euphoria"?


--Greg

I forwarded Mr Kanala's postings to a Swiss citizen working here, he
considered it "generally accurate" as far as the voting percentages and
the description of the process.

Another co-worker had this to say:

                                ***
I don't know anything about [Swiss] voter turnout percentages.  I don't think
 they
can be used to argue whether or not there is really democracy.  It might be
that the _threat_ of a vote is the most important thing about a democracy,
not the vote itself.

In a two party system if people don't vote because
they find it difficult to distinguish the two candidates, then it is clear
they have already "voted" by being considered in opinion polls and in platform
development.  The final vote is just to confirm that the parties haven't lost
touch with the people.  If  a party drifts too far from the people the
turnout would surely be large, especially for a high position.
                                ***


--Greg

Tovabitom ezt a felhivast a listara
udv ORCZAN Zsolt

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
This message was  originally submitted by  to  the MET-TOZS list
at HUEARN. If  you simply forward it  back to the list, it  will be distributed
with the paragraph you are now reading being automatically removed. If you edit
the  contributions you  receive into  a digest,  you will  need to  remove this
paragraph before  mailing the results  to the list.  Finally, if you  need more
information from  the author of this  message, you should  be able to do  so by
simply replying to this note.

----------------- Message requiring your approval (11 lines) ------------------
Kedves Tozsde irant erdeklodok!

Talaltam a vilagban egy napi frissitesu tozsdei informacioforrast.
Gondoltam, talan nem haszontalan, ha kozze teszem. Igaz ugyan nem egeszen
a mi profilunk, de ha hasznosnak talaljatok ott hagyom.
A "Networking Information" menupont ala linkeltem be (nem oda tartozik ugyan,
majd kesobb valoszinuleg atstrukturalom az egeszet). Visszajelzest koszonettel
veszek.

Udv,
    Lengyel Veronika

MET----------------HUNGARIAN ELECTRONIC EXCHANGE------------------MET
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=ELECTRONIC JOURNAL  HU ISSN 1216-0229 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

                On line a kormanyules temaibol...

    Az uj szovivot Forro Evelyn szemelyeben nevezte ki a kabinet
A szovivo asszony  korabban a Magyar Radio munkatarsa volt.
    A mai tajekoztaton Horn Gyula miniszterelnok tartott beszamolot.
  Temakorok...
- Lesz-e Expo 96 1996-ban ?
- Bos-Nagymaros - nagyra nott vizikigyo ?
- Helyzetkep a helyzeterol - ujraszamolt koltsegvetes ?
- Parbeszed a neppel...

  - Az Expo iranya etert az eredetileg tervezett vallalkozoi
szereposztastol -jelentette ki a sajto kepviseloinek a miniszterelnok.
A kormany attekintette az expoval kacsolatos eddigi eredmenyeket.
Mivel a vilagkiallitas jelenlegi allapotaban nem vallalkozoi jellegu,
a tovabblepest csak igen eros, legalabb  50-60 milliard forintos
koltsegvetesi tamogatassal lehetne megvalositani. Ezzel nem
terhelhetok meg az adozo allampolgarok - hangzott el az ulest
kovetoen. Az ugy  gondos szamitasok utan az ugy augusztusban kerul az
Orszaggyules ele.
   A vilagkiallitashoz kapcsolodo infrastrukturalis, es felsooktatasi
letesitmenyek ettol fuggetlenul megvalosulnak. Igy a kiallitas
elmaradasanak koltsegkiahatasai (megkotott szerzodesek lemondasa,
stb.) nem lesznek jelentosek, es a fovaros is fejlodik.
   NINCS VESZELYBEN az eredetileg az EXPO-val egyutt tervezett
millecentenariumi unnepsegsorozat, a honfoglalas 1100-ik
evfordulojara. Ez tovabbra is teljes tamogatast elvez. Koltsegvetesi
kihatasait - es a beadott palyazatokat - ertekelni fogjak.
  - Bos - Nagymaros ugyet rendezni kell. Legfontosabb, hogy lehetoleg
minnel teljesebb vizhozamot lehessen biztositani  a veszelyeztetett
Szigetkozben. (A 40-60 szazalekos potlas sem jelenthetne vegleges
megoldast). A rendezeshez tovabbi targyalasok szuksegesek.  -
  - Felszolitottak a miniszteriumokat, es a Magyar Nemzeti Bankot,
hogy allitsanak ossze intezmenyenkent egy-egy, a teljes kepet tukrozo
anyagot a jelenlegi penzugyi helyzetrol. Ennek fenyeben lehet csak
attekinteni - a kesobbikben - a koltsegvetes jelenlegi allapotat.
Ugyanakkor a kormany atnezi az orszag tartozasallomanyat, es az
eddig vallalt garanciak, kotelezettsegvallalasok penzugyi kiahatasait
is.
   - Parbeszed a neppel. A kabinet donteseiben fokozott
kapcsolattartas kezdemenyezett a szocialis parnerekkel,
munkavallalok, munkaadok kepviesloivel. Utasitast kaptak a
miniszteriumok is, hogy az allapolgari kezdemenyezesket, javaslatokat
kulonos gonddal kezeljek, illetve vegyek figyelembe, egy se maradjon
tisztesseges valasz, illetve intezkedes nelkul mivel - idezem -
"egyetlen kormanyzat sem lehet arrogans a lakossaggal szemben".

                                           O.CS.S.
 This article is Copyright (C) 1991 by ORCZAN brothers
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

       M     M   EEEEE   TTTTTTT   1994. III. volume /evfolyam.
       M M M M   E          T           HU ISSN  1216-0229
       M  M  M   EEEE       T      HUNGARIAN  ELECTRONIC EXCHANGE
       M     M   E          T           ELECTRONIC JOURNAL
       M     M   EEEEEE     T      BUDAPEST,Pf.311. H-1536.HUNGARY
  Publisher: dr.Orczan, Zsolt L. Editor in Chief: Orczan, Csaba S.
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
     IB000EA5  AT  HUEARN                           26.05.1994.

MET-------------------------------END---------------------------MET